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Old 23-03-2015, 11:41   #31
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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Originally Posted by Neeltje View Post
..........., the city of Orlando is now asking to pump 5 million gallons a day out of the Saint Johns River in order to feed its fountains and golf courses. ...............
That's what they are asking for? Water for the fountains and golf courses?

That's a little hard to believe.

I suspect it's to meet the needs of its citizens and businesses.

I don't want to see anyone drain the St. Johns River either but if we want to be taken seriously, we have to tell the truth.
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Old 23-03-2015, 12:06   #32
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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Good thing Floridians like us have folks from the Great Lakes to tell us what the problem is and what we should do!
'
That to me is the heart of the problem. In my mind this whole thing has more impact on Florida boaters than anyone else and they are the only ones with any voice in the issue far as boaters go. I bet transient out State boaters are a pretty small part of the overall boat related revenue in Florida to not even really register on the minds of the State law markers. In fact I would bet to a lot of those in power the more they hear from out of state people trying to tell them what to do the more they dig their heels in.
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Old 23-03-2015, 12:08   #33
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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That to me is the heart of the problem. In my mind this whole thing has more impact on Florida boaters than anyone else and they are the only ones with any voice in the issue far as boaters go. I bet transient out State boaters are a pretty small part of the overall boat related revenue in Florida to not even really register on the minds of the State law markers. In fact I would bet to a lot of those in power the more they hear from out of state people trying to tell them what to do the more they dig their heels in.
Particularly when most of the out of state boaters seem to be doing their best to avoid paying any state or use taxes, even if it means registering their boat in a state they've never been to!
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Old 23-03-2015, 12:20   #34
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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You may need to reread my post, but maybe not since you snipped out the part about this law resulting in an increase of friction for boats trying to anchor in Florida waters.

You also snipped out the part about environmental concerns Florida citizens who are not boaters may have.

My Mom and Dad both went to high school in Florida as did I. I have seen lots of changes, mostly for the worse, in Florida waters and have to say I have no problem with increasing the friction requited to anchor in Florida waters.

I suspect a majority of Florida citizens would agree.
I eliminated the irrelevant stuff that had nothing to do with rationing from my response. This isn't about who has the most relevant "Florida cred", it's about who has the more sensible argument.

So your position is that Florida should make it more difficult to anchor in the state. Got it. That could also be accomplished simply through a more thorough registration and tax process. Unless this is just about some homeowner who doesn't want boats anchored in front of his property.

I suspect most Florida citizens don't really care, which is why the legislature is always trying to sneak in some very specific rules on a short time frame without a lot of citizen input, and vote on it in a legislative session.

Those who DO care should be providing some inputs to their legislature. I generally believe that the less regulation, the better. I definitely don't think you should give the government more authority than they need in order to solve any specific problem.

And that's where we are. What is the specific problem they're trying to solve? If it's derelict boats, I think we're giving more authority than needed, and maybe not enough specific resources.
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Old 23-03-2015, 12:24   #35
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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This has been said many times by many people but nobody as posted any evidence to substantiate this claim.
I posted lots of evidence last year.

Every single time I was hassled at anchor, I was within the view of a multimillion dollar home. In some cases, I literally had not paid out all of my chain when I was told to move.

If I moved just around the corner, sometimes just a few hundred feet, instantly I was OK. Same boat, jurisdiction, occupants, etc.. Law Enforcement are not shy to admit that while you are anchored legally, you will be hassled until you move. Again, not just one jurisdiction or Agency, but many behaved exactly the same way.

Anyone who thinks that is not who is behind the legislation is naive at best.

If this legislation passes, for me it will mean that instead of cruising the Florida Coast, I will make longer passages, and stop only for weather, saving my money for my eventual destination. Florida Restaurants, Marine Suppliers, Grocery stores, etc., will lose my measly few dollars.

Local money talks, the rest of us will move along right or wrong.

And Rognvald, my point was clear, leave Florida's issues to Floridians, and we won't tell anyone on the Great Lakes what to do with their 3 weeks of summer.

And if we're going to compare Florida pedigrees, my Late Mother was born in Coconut Grove in 1928.


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Old 23-03-2015, 12:56   #36
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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Every single time I was hassled at anchor, I was within the view of a multimillion dollar home. In some cases, I literally had not paid out all of my chain when I was told to move.

If I moved just around the corner, sometimes just a few hundred feet, instantly I was OK. Same boat, jurisdiction, occupants, etc.. Law Enforcement are not shy to admit that while you are anchored legally, you will be hassled until you move. Again, not just one jurisdiction or Agency, but many behaved exactly the same way.
Can you recall exactly where you were when you got hassled?

We've anchored from Pensacola to Fernandina Beach while cruising during 2013 and 2014. I was told to move on one occasion at Marco, where I admittedly was very close to the channel. Other than that, no problems. Only a couple of spots might be out if the legislation passes, at least where we have anchored in the past. I really don't see a big problem with the proposal, but I could be wrong. We'll see when we head back there in the fall.

Ralph
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Old 23-03-2015, 12:57   #37
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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........ I bet transient out State boaters are a pretty small part of the overall boat related revenue in Florida to not even really register on the minds of the State law markers. ............
Boaters who stay in marinas, eat at local restaurants and have work done on their boats are a pretty big part of the Florida economy, especially on the coasts. Boaters who anchor out and never buy anything but beer and groceries are not a big part of the economy and legislators are not concerned about them except for the problems they cause.
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Old 23-03-2015, 13:02   #38
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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That's what they are asking for? Water for the fountains and golf courses?

That's a little hard to believe.

I suspect it's to meet the needs of its citizens and businesses.

I don't want to see anyone drain the St. Johns River either but if we want to be taken seriously, we have to tell the truth.
Yes Ron, Orlando's need for water has increased exponentially over the past few years mainly due to an exploding population and industrial growth. But according to the SJRWMD and the several River Keepers that have chimed in on the subject, the city has done practically nothing to curtail what they call "discretionary water consumption" in an attempt to deal with the problem locally. Hence my crack about fountains & golf courses.

Jacques
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Old 23-03-2015, 13:08   #39
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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Yes Ron, Orlando's need for water has increased exponentially over the past few years mainly due to an exploding population and industrial growth. But according to the SJRWMD and the several River Keepers that have chimed in on the subject, the city has done practically nothing to curtail what they call "discretionary water consumption" in an attempt to deal with the problem locally. Hence my crack about fountains & golf courses.

Jacques
Are they using "recycled water" for irrigation like many areas in FL do? Many golf courses recapture irrigation water and store it in their ponds to be used over and over again. Orlando is growing and while that bothers many long time residents, it's bringing jobs and prosperity to the area. More people and more productivity means more water needs.

I would be suspect of anything put out by "River Keepers". They have their own agenda. If they had their way, they would exclude us boaters from the rivers. They have blocked additional boat ramps in my area.
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Old 23-03-2015, 13:19   #40
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

Actually almost all of the springs are in North Fl, FWIW
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Old 23-03-2015, 13:28   #41
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

"And Rognvald, my point was clear, leave Florida's issues to Floridians, and we won't tell anyone on the Great Lakes what to do with their 3 weeks of summer.

And if we're going to compare Florida pedigrees, my Late Mother was born in Coconut Grove in 1928." Custom 30


Am I mistaken or is it true that the State of Florida has seceded from the US? What about American tax paying boaters from the rest of the US that buy their boats and keep their boats and spend their recreational dollars in Florida? You can't be so naive to think that those boating dollars would not be a huge loss to the State of Florida and its businesses. Why would they not want to effect Florida's stance on anchoring rights? Why would they not have a vested interest in Florida's laws? This is patently naive and an uneducated view of how simple Economics works.
Secondly, I have never tried to establish a Florida pedigree as it is, at best, foolish and patently irrelevant to the subject. I did, however, mention the time we spent in Florida as a response to your simple and irrational question: how many times have YOU anchored in Florida? I believe I answered that quite extensively in the above post.
And, finally, you might consider that the time you have spent in Florida with your impressive pedigree is no proof of a sound, intelligent decision making process when it comes to Florida anchoring rights. It only means you live or, at one time, lived . . . in Florida. By the way, I hope you weren't related to the tobacco spitting cracker that tried to steal our tent and camp supplies just before dark when we were wild boar hunting outside of Clewiston? I think he also mentioned something about a pedigree. Good luck, good sailing . . . and three cheers for a pedigree! Hoorah! Hoorah! Hoorah! Captain Rognvald in utmost respect.
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Old 23-03-2015, 15:22   #42
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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Can you recall exactly where you were when you got hassled?

We've anchored from Pensacola to Fernandina Beach while cruising during 2013 and 2014. I was told to move on one occasion at Marco, where I admittedly was very close to the channel. Other than that, no problems. Only a couple of spots might be out if the legislation passes, at least where we have anchored in the past. I really don't see a big problem with the proposal, but I could be wrong. We'll see when we head back there in the fall.

Ralph
Hey Ralph!

We skipped Marco and Naples entirely for that reason.

Most of our problems were in the upper Keys. We were hassled both by the FWC and the Monroe County Sheriff Patrol. On each occasion we were legally anchored, but it was made clear that we would be "checked", and "inspected" as often as necessary until we moved.

At one point, anchored nowhere near any channel, we were temporarily disabled and making repairs. Since he couldn't make us move, the Deputy requested to see the receipt where we had ordered our parts! I told him to report to his keepers (homeowners across the way) that we would be fixed in a couple days, and he hung his head. This occurred in a spot that has been listed as an anchorage on charts as far back as charts of the Keys go. Specifically, the left fork of the Snake River in Islamorada. Since they couldn't make us move, residents showed their derision by waking our boat dangerously close (50 feet from the no wake zone sign) at full speed. Another boat from Marco Island was anchored nearby for a couple of days, was also hassled even though it was a nice big trawler. He reported that a couple of times the residents came so close he was certain they had hit us! The Sheriff tried to tell me that we were anchored in a "channel". When I pointed out that this fork only has 2 feet of water at the end he dropped that argument but still insisted we had to move.

I know it is uncomfortable for many Americans to believe that the USA can operate like a 3rd World Country like this, where the rich have all the say, but this is exactly what we experienced. Maybe because we don't care much for the mooring field trailer parks, we tend to anchor more than others. When we're not at home, we usually avoid marinas as well, and this puts us on the hook just about all of the time.

Hope you and Beverly are well, and Kim and I hope to see you back cruising soon!

Larry

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Old 23-03-2015, 16:14   #43
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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Are they using "recycled water" for irrigation like many areas in FL do? Many golf courses recapture irrigation water and store it in their ponds to be used over and over again. Orlando is growing and while that bothers many long time residents, it's bringing jobs and prosperity to the area. More people and more productivity means more water needs.

I would be suspect of anything put out by "River Keepers". They have their own agenda. If they had their way, they would exclude us boaters from the rivers. They have blocked additional boat ramps in my area.
Surprisingly enough, Florida's agroindustry seems to be making more of an effort in water conservation/recycling than its cities are, and yes, Orlando is "growing", but I'm beginning to wonder just how much "prosperity" this State can handle before it turns around and bites it in the ass.

The River Keepers' "agenda" is to protect the rivers from the boaters, commercial entities or riverfront property owners that use them. I have no problem with that if it can help preserve and hopefully restore a very fragile ecosystem in the long run.

Jacques
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Old 23-03-2015, 16:33   #44
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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.....The River Keepers' "agenda" is to protect the rivers from the boaters, commercial entities or riverfront property owners that use them. I have no problem with that if it can help preserve and hopefully restore a very fragile ecosystem in the long run.

Jacques
But what's the point in having rivers if we can't use them?

What is really ruining the planet is an over population of humans but those that control things don't have the guts to force birth control. What we do here is nothing compared to those folks clearing rain forests to grow crops.
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Old 23-03-2015, 17:28   #45
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Re: Another fl anchoring threat, what to do

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But what's the point in having rivers if we can't use them?

What is really ruining the planet is an over population of humans but those that control things don't have the guts to force birth control. What we do here is nothing compared to those folks clearing rain forests to grow crops.
Ron, you're stating the obvious ; its all about "overpopulation", but while Mao Tse Tung did a pretty good job of slowing it down somewhat in his day, I can't see anybody limiting the cruising community to one rowboat per family unit at this point.

There's no "point" in having rivers. They weren't created for human consumption in the first place, and if you're lucky enough to have one flowing past you, you aught to do your best to keep it intact.

Jacques
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