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Old 26-07-2011, 21:41   #46
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

Take a google earth view of Key West..... There are THOUSANDS of boats anchored in a 10 mile radius.... I'll bet fully 1/3 are either working poor, or "indigent housing". That said, there are others worth millions. The land side housing is so expensive, the City is almost forced to look the other way for the derelict permanent liveaboards, as the unskilled labor pool would disappear. There are a lot of higher paid skilled labor types living on the hook too, but the difference in their vessels appearance is obvious.

The derelict live aboard issue is a lot easier to tackle in a coastal town than a touristy island 100 miles from the mainland!
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Old 26-07-2011, 22:03   #47
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"the deralict livaboard issue"....

So there you have it. It's not about abandoned boats is it?

What you guys are saying is that a certain sect of liveaboards should be regulated, while the rest of 'us' can be free. Am I way off base here?

If there's overcrowding of an anchorage. Some of them are 'poor' liveaboards, some of them are 'working class' liveaboards, and others are weathy, why is it a "deralict liveaboard problem"?

How can a nice expensive yacht have more rights than a half sunk 50 year old yacht in the same anchorage? As long as somebody is living on it, or maintaining is legal status, they have EQUAL rights on the same waterway.

Maybe equal rights is still a difficult thing for some people to understand... I don't know.

I'll ask the question again. Is this about abandoned boats? Or is about poor people living on boats?
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Old 27-07-2011, 07:11   #48
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

So then go back to the guy living in his car.... He likes the water, so he sets up camp in front of Joe Millionaire's waterfront home.... Lemme know how that turns out!

Don't get me wrong, I'm as live and let live as the next guy, but one goober dumping his sewage and trash in the water..... And for some reason the indigent type seems more prone to the practise.... Will not bode well for the responsible cruiser's rights.

Unfortunately, it is a lot easier for (the land dwelling majority) government to paint the entire boating community with the same brush, than to deal with the individual irresponsible offender.

Quote:
How can a nice expensive yacht have more rights than a half sunk 50 year old yacht in the same anchorage? As long as somebody is living on it, or maintaining is legal status, they have EQUAL rights on the same waterway.
Simple... I'll bet the expensive one has insurance, and is a lot less likely to just abandon the boat if it sank (which it won't because the expensive boat owner has an investment to protect). Not to mention the expensive (and insured) boat will not be a burden to the taxpayer for it's salvage and removal. In addition, the expensive boat would be a lot less likely to pollute the environment, again to protect the investment.

How about not worrying about the value of the boat, and just create a financial responsibility law for ALL VESSELS like the "no fault" insurance many jurisdictions require of automobiles...
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Old 27-07-2011, 07:32   #49
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

Then enforcing no-dumping laws is the issue here. It has nothing to do with who's allowed to anchor where.

If people want to get rid of the ugly and abandoned boats, the poor people, and the derelict liveaboards, it's easy, turn anchorages into the suburbs. Put in moorings, charge $20 a night, and enforce the rules with a heavy hand. It's been done that way for ages...

People dumping sewage are breaking the already existing laws... Do we need more laws? or just more enforcment? Oh but we want to be free? It's really difficult to have it all.... If you see somebody dumping sewage, how about asking them to stop? Talk to them. Or call 911, whichever.... But that's no excuse to try and find ways to turn America's waterways into Americas Suburban Yacht club.

It's an age old problem. "those pesky poor people, always ruining it for the rest of us"...
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Old 27-07-2011, 07:56   #50
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

The entire problem, as I see it, is simple and so is the solution. Boats get old and depreciate in value as they age. They get less and less attention and care and because a boat, unlike a car, is expensive to dispose of, they are eventually abandoned after the owner carefully removes all the numbers. Then, if it's still floating, squatters move in.

If we empower the State to seize and dispose of any boat that is not registered, and make it a condition of registration and/or purchase that the owners post a disposal bond to be forfeited if they do not maintain the the registration or prove they took their boat to a disposal station or dump, owners will dispose of their old boats properly rather that lose $10,000. Boats would also be required to be inspected every three years, just like cars. The actual size of the bond should vary with the size of the boat, and the revenues could be used to pay for the program.

Since that shifts the burden of proof to the owners, boats would no longer just disappear in deep water. And no more useless trashed out boats laying around.
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Old 27-07-2011, 08:49   #51
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
Then enforcing no-dumping laws is the issue here. It has nothing to do with who's allowed to anchor where.

If people want to get rid of the ugly and abandoned boats, the poor people, and the derelict liveaboards, it's easy, turn anchorages into the suburbs. Put in moorings, charge $20 a night, and enforce the rules with a heavy hand. It's been done that way for ages...

People dumping sewage are breaking the already existing laws... Do we need more laws? or just more enforcment? Oh but we want to be free? It's really difficult to have it all.... If you see somebody dumping sewage, how about asking them to stop? Talk to them. Or call 911, whichever.... But that's no excuse to try and find ways to turn America's waterways into Americas Suburban Yacht club.

It's an age old problem. "those pesky poor people, always ruining it for the rest of us"...
Not an issue of rich vs. poor per se, but one of responsibility.... It's a fact of life that people will protect an investment (of time and/or money) and those without anything invested tend to be less responsible. The less responsible ones cause problems for all.
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Old 27-07-2011, 09:22   #52
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

The problem has been taken care of in the south pacific for boats entering the area.. a bond must be taken out for the boat and its owners..
It would be a simple inforcement.. to own a boat, you must have a bond, if you sell, the bond is either dropped or transfered to another boat..
a one time fee equal to the sum of the boat being salvaged..
If you dont have the funds to post a bond, tough cookies, you dont own a boat....
I wouldnt mind in the least, to pay a recovery fee in the form of a bond..It would also help cruisers, as when traveling to other areas, the authorities would know you had backing to have your boat salvaged if it went down..
If the bonds were issued BY the state or Federal , the funds from this could also be used in clean water acts.......
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Old 27-07-2011, 09:50   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capngeo
So then go back to the guy living in his car.... He likes the water, so he sets up camp in front of Joe Millionaire's waterfront home.... Lemme know how that turns out!

Don't get me wrong, I'm as live and let live as the next guy, but one goober dumping his sewage and trash in the water..... And for some reason the indigent type seems more prone to the practise.... Will not bode well for the responsible cruiser's rights.

Unfortunately, it is a lot easier for (the land dwelling majority) government to paint the entire boating community with the same brush, than to deal with the individual irresponsible offender.

Simple... I'll bet the expensive one has insurance, and is a lot less likely to just abandon the boat if it sank (which it won't because the expensive boat owner has an investment to protect). Not to mention the expensive (and insured) boat will not be a burden to the taxpayer for it's salvage and removal. In addition, the expensive boat would be a lot less likely to pollute the environment, again to protect the investment.

How about not worrying about the value of the boat, and just create a financial responsibility law for ALL VESSELS like the "no fault" insurance many jurisdictions require of automobiles...
Ok I am really not liking the tone of this. That is like assuming all poor steal. That's just wrong headed. We recently had a homeless man here find a backpack that a young man left at a bus stop. It had 4,000 cash in it. The young man was planning on buying a car. The homeless gentleman turned over backpack and all the contents. Never assume because someone is not in you money bracket that they are not good people. That's very sad.
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Old 27-07-2011, 10:11   #54
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

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Ok I am really not liking the tone of this. That is like assuming all poor steal. That's just wrong headed. We recently had a homeless man here find a backpack that a young man left at a bus stop. It had 4,000 cash in it. The young man was planning on buying a car. The homeless gentleman turned over backpack and all the contents. Never assume because someone is not in you money bracket that they are not good people. That's very sad.
I wasn't saying that at all! My point was one of being responsible, and I was speaking in generalities, not absolutes. I'm sure you can find a zillioinaire who dumps his tank when nobody is looking too. But in general, those with nothing to loose, will in general be less responsible. Especially in the event their vessel sinks or pollutes. How can you pay for salvage when you have no assets? How can you pay for an oil spill clean-up? The short answer is you cannot, so the cost gets passed to the taxpayer.

I am responsible; I work and have assets. I insure my assets, and because of that, I can afford the clean-up of a mess I caused.... as it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to do so. I take umbrage to the notion that I am also responsible (through higher taxation and/or insurance rates) to pay for someone else's folly just because they cannot afford to be responsible.

There is no RIGHT that everyone gets to enjoy the same things in life. I have a 28' boat, because I cannot afford a 128' boat. Even if I were "given" one, I would refuse, because I lack the resource to bear the liability (and responsibility) that comes with ownership of a 128' vessel!
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Old 27-07-2011, 10:19   #55
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To get back on topic....
What are the current regulations about waste disposal other then the 3 mile rule? Aren't you required to have a locked Y valve? Seems like occasional inspections by guard auxillary might help in problem areas. Portable pump out services being available?

I am sure most us understand we are sailors because we are independent type of people. The same reason I have a love / hate relationship with my homeowners association. Nothing wrong with turning in someone that you think is breaking the law as long as it is based on probable cause. Otherwise it is just harassment.

County Sheriffs offices may have an interest in going after abandoned boats as a revenue stream.
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Old 27-07-2011, 10:30   #56
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

We ARE on topic, as the OP wanted to hear how cruisers could help with the derelict boat situation. Forcing financial RESPONSIBILITY on all vessels would fix the problem of derelict boats in short order.
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Old 27-07-2011, 10:39   #57
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Sorry our posts passed each other. I was not trying to offend you.

It would help if you could be more specific. Are you suggesting mandatory boat insurance?
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Old 27-07-2011, 10:47   #58
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

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Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
What you guys are saying is that a certain sect of liveaboards should be regulated, while the rest of 'us' can be free. Am I way off base here?
Yes, you are way off base here. No one has said that at all, and the insinuation that this has been claimed is nothing more than a straw-man argument.

The argument has been made that since local authorities can't discriminate between desirable and undesirable use of their waterways, they end up restricting all use.

The argument has also been made that when an anchorage is full to capacity with derelicts that cannot move under their own power, cruising boats are unable to access those anchorages.

None of us has the right to anchor where we want, when we want. The reality is that more and more anchorages are closed to cruisers either because of restrictive regulations, or because they have become storage places for derelicts.
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Old 27-07-2011, 10:52   #59
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

Technically most U.S. states mandate auto insurance, but about 25% of all driver don't have it. I doubt you'd get a different result with boat insurance.

I wonder how many of those boats anchored off Key West and other areas that have live aboards even have a holding tank. I'll bet more than a few have nothing but a porta-potty. Does anyone honestly believe they are willing to go pierside to dump sewage out of the porta-potty? I'd also be willing to bet a lot of pumping of holding tanks is done after dark there as well.

Personally, I like the registration rule. If a boat has no registration, regardless if it is lived on or not, gets a short grace periord of 7 or 14 days to get it registered. After that, the boat is left for marine salvage and a new title is turned over to the new owners. If no one wants the boat, off to the dump she goes.
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Old 27-07-2011, 11:05   #60
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Re: Anchoring and Cruisers' Responsibilities

Requiring that a boat have means of motivation and, if equipped for longer use, sewage containment, in certain areas would not be unreasonable in my opinion. It doesn't seem terribly restrictive to me. Limiting the length of stay in high demand, urban areas also makes sense to me.

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