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Old 14-08-2016, 16:15   #136
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

I can not help myself.

I am that white male that worked very hard, kept his nose clean, did not do drugs or rob or steal. Borrowed money to go to school. Worked very hard day in and day out 8 - 9 hours a day. Was at work on time, did not call off sick very often. Was reliable.

I still think of you work hard and keep your nose clean. I mean while others are drinking and doing drugs you not to be studying. It did not come easy for me...I had to work hard at being good at want I did.

So shame on me.

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Old 14-08-2016, 17:29   #137
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Am I overly cautious around water?

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Anyone ever look at the numbers on how many sailors drowned from falling overboard at sea, 20 or even 40 years ago?

Could you provide some safety statistics to back that up? Otherwise it is hyperbole.

I said this before and I will say it again. After retiring from running a construction operation that had both an outstanding accident record and top productivity. The use of safety gear saves lives and prevents injury.

There is a mountain of data to back that up.

One can choose to not use safety gear. That is their right.

But PLEASE do not make up facts to make that choice appear rational.

Yes I have been seen on deck wearing a harness and little else. Putting a harness on takes 10-15 seconds.
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Old 14-08-2016, 17:35   #138
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pirate Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Could you provide some safety statistics to back that up? Otherwise it is hyperbole.

I said this before and I will say it again. After retiring from running a construction operation that had both an outstanding accident record and top productivity. The use of safety gear saves lives and prevents injury.

There is a mountain of data to back that up.

One can choose to not use safety gear. That is their right.

But PLEASE do not make up facts to make that choice appear rational.

Yes I have been seen on deck wearing a harness and little else. Putting a harness on takes 10-15 seconds.
On a construction site you've countless dickheads to protect yourself from..
On your boat..???
Me up the mast of a 62footer last month.. note safety lines.. chair etc...
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Old 14-08-2016, 18:20   #139
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

As I said before, not everything on a boat can be made safe. Winches, going up the mast, etc. A sailboat is an OSHA nightmare.

FWIW when I go up, there is a loop line around the mast. If I fall that line will foul on the shrouds or spreader.

Regarding safety gear on a job-site, there are many things to protect you from you. Fall protection, gloves and eye protection when grinding etc. I could drone one but...

We all make our own choices. You make yours, I make mine. I will not second guess yours; and ask that facts are used to second guess mine.


Sent from my iPhone- please forgive autocorrect errors.
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Old 14-08-2016, 18:23   #140
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Could you provide some safety statistics to back that up? Otherwise it is hyperbole.

I said this before and I will say it again. After retiring from running a construction operation that had both an outstanding accident record and top productivity. The use of safety gear saves lives and prevents injury.

There is a mountain of data to back that up.

One can choose to not use safety gear. That is their right.

But PLEASE do not make up facts to make that choice appear rational.

Yes I have been seen on deck wearing a harness and little else. Putting a harness on takes 10-15 seconds.
Firstly, to counter this so called hyperbole. Where's the data which PROVES with causality that harnesses & PFD's have prevented such a grand number of fatalities? As without such, all of the noise as to their importance is as much a marketing gimmick as anything else. And realistically is perhaps less valid when some of their weakness, & inherent dangers are exposed. See below.

As to the data you want, I no longer have such records, as I'm not doing Safety At Sea Seminars any more. Meaning teaching, looking at such data, & turning it into recommendations. And testing out all modalities of safety gear, live, in much more realistic settings than takes place in any of the seminars.

However, as an example. I sailed on the Offshore Racing Team, at the US Naval Academy for 4 years. And during that time, there was an average of 15 boats sailing 5-6 days a week, almost year round: Practices, day races, 3-day races, up & down the Eastern Seaboard, Trans-Atlantics, Bermuda races, etc. And we'd wear harness at times at night if it was rough (F7+). But not once did anyone wind up testing them out, let alone go swimming. Yet we didn't sail conservatively at all. With many of the boats being Skippered by 19 year olds, & they were 44'- 75' boats.


On the so called safety gear, as an example as to it's "quality". I can bend, & permanently deform a Double Action/Safe Action Snap Hook, as found on most approved harness tethers. Quite easily, with one hand, while holding it in that hand. In a motion which directly replicates a snap hook being twisted under load against a jackline. Such as if someone were to fall, & their tether was being pulled against what it was clipped to.

The gates on many of them are only 2mm diameter stainless wire, attached to the hook's body on one side only.
Yet they're approved by many, if not all, US based sailing governing bodies. How's that for a warm fuzzy? And why the bleep would such safety gear get approved? I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall for that one. Or even better, a voice of common sense & logic.

If that's not enough, there are LOTs of tests of PFDs & Harnesses in popular sailing magazines which show that if you're being dragged by one, & the boat isn't Stopped within about 40sec. Odds are you'll have drowned or be on the edge there of. And by stopped I mean just that, not slowed to 2kts.
On this, links & videos are easy to find, needs be. Ditto on the reports of sailing bodies showing a good number of instances where PFDs killed the wearers by trapping them inside of a boat, or underneath of one. The data ain't hard to come by.


PS: Snore, why is your signature line contrary to your quoted post on this topic?

And in terms of up the mast sillyness. I've free climed 85' up the headstay, with a plastic cup full of Gin & Tonic in my teeth, & a beer in my back pocket, up to the masthead. As my buddy the bowman was up there, in harness, working on something, & it was cocktail hour. We then had our drinks, & I slid back down. No biggie.
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Old 14-08-2016, 23:14   #141
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
As I said before, not everything on a boat can be made safe. Winches, going up the mast, etc. A sailboat is an OSHA nightmare.

FWIW when I go up, there is a loop line around the mast. If I fall that line will foul on the shrouds or spreader.

Regarding safety gear on a job-site, there are many things to protect you from you. Fall protection, gloves and eye protection when grinding etc. I could drone one but...

We all make our own choices. You make yours, I make mine. I will not second guess yours; and ask that facts are used to second guess mine.


Sent from my iPhone- please forgive autocorrect errors.
Why would anyone feel safe wearing an official US Coast Guard approved life jacket? None of the jacket/vests sold in the US even come with a crotch strap, so they're basically useless.

Here's a good demonstration. After watching it, do you still feel safe just because it meets the government requirements?
More government regulations isn't the answer, with it you get the stupid life vest on the left. Believe it or not, the vest on the right isn't US Coast Guard approved.

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Old 15-08-2016, 03:10   #142
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Why would anyone feel safe wearing an official US Coast Guard approved life jacket? None of the jacket/vests sold in the US even come with a crotch strap, so they're basically useless.

Here's a good demonstration. After watching it, do you still feel safe just because it meets the government requirements?
More government regulations isn't the answer, with it you get the stupid life vest on the left. Believe it or not, the vest on the right isn't US Coast Guard approved.
First good video, the fact that so many inflatables do not have straps and there was no general recall or warning, is inexcusable.

Beyond that----There you go assuming again. First, after the first incident (Ca or MI?) with inflatables coming off people, I added crotch straps to my Mustangs. Second, I never said I wore a PFD all the time. Candidly, offshore alone- I wear only a harness. The harness fit is very different and with the smaller arm holes, I can't see it coming over my hear. Ain't no one bringing the boat back if I go over.

Uncivilized you made my point for me. As a member of the Naval Academy team you were 18-22 maybe 23. Ya think you may have slowed down a tad since then? Every OSHA regulation is the result of someone's death or significant injury. Safety gear not only provides physical protection, it is part of a mindset. Regarding proof that safety gear pay? Google cost justification of a safety program the number of quality hits will surprise you. Anecdotally, how about 665,000 man-hours without a lost time accident?

Finally, if you can bend a REAL double action biner like the industry standard Kong---remind me never to shake your hand. Kongs are used not only on better tethers, but also on confined space safety gear and rescue gear.








Gentlemen, at this point I will bow out of the discussion. If I showed proofs from now till the second-coming you will not change your minds. I respectfully request you use facts when arguing your point.
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Old 15-08-2016, 03:33   #143
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

Snore,

My post wasn't directed only at your comment. It was intended for general consumption and criticism of the entire concept of trusting government to fix things. So many folks on this thread seem to feel than government acting as the nanny state is the end all answer to our safety issues.

We have twelve of the crotch strap type life vests on our boat... No thanks to the nanny state. But rather, thanks to common sense.
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Old 16-08-2016, 03:51   #144
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

I've been out sailing the past 3 days. It got pretty dangerous and scary at the end when it got down to only 1 beer ��
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Old 16-08-2016, 03:53   #145
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

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I've been out sailing the past 3 days. It got pretty dangerous and scary at the end when it got down to only 1 beer ��
Sound very irresponsible not having a backup supply to help you get to the nearest port for resupply
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Old 16-08-2016, 05:32   #146
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

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I've been out sailing the past 3 days. It got pretty dangerous and scary at the end when it got down to only 1 beer ��
A rookie mistake. You newbees have so much to learn.
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Old 16-08-2016, 06:00   #147
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
And in terms of up the mast sillyness. I've free climed 85' up the headstay, with a plastic cup full of Gin & Tonic in my teeth, & a beer in my back pocket, up to the masthead. As my buddy the bowman was up there, in harness, working on something, & it was cocktail hour. We then had our drinks, & I slid back down. No biggie.
I hope this is true, because it's the most awesome thing I've read in this thread!

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Old 16-08-2016, 06:40   #148
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

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Some of it is sensible. I am fine with laws about lifejackets and seat belts, and lights on boats, so I don't run into them.

But we do Interfere with natural selection a bit much in Western countries.

My issue is with the extortion rackets associated with those laws. "You're minding your own business, not wearing your seatbelt so, we will steal from you and call it legal." Even though the Constitution says you can't be brought into court, with out an injured party.!


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Old 16-08-2016, 07:34   #149
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

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You really can't see how it is a race and sex issue when white men have over double the representation in politics they should have statistically, taking seats away from other racial minorities and women?

And who is running against them, and why did they fail to get elected.? 🤔🤔🤔


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Old 16-08-2016, 09:14   #150
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Re: Am I overly cautious around water?

I will try to find a YouTube of a sailor that is down to the last beer...

No luck - seems sailing with 1 beer left is too too dangerous.

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