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Old 25-04-2016, 14:10   #76
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Re: Almost run over.

By gosh... I got the right of way and if the other guy hits me... He'll have to pay my family off.

Because I'll be dead.

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Old 25-04-2016, 14:16   #77
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Re: Almost run over.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
What country is Andiamo registered in? A formal written report to the licensing authority, in many countries will cause some grief for the skipper of the vessel. I dunno about your neck of the woods, though...
Good Luck... It is registered in Kingstown

You have to have a proactive registering authority to have the complaint investigated.
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Old 25-04-2016, 17:38   #78
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Re: Almost run over.

Let's see, one time we were awaken in the dark of the night when a boat full of drunks hit the buoy we were tied up to. They actually thought it was funny.

Another time it was a fishing boat, not engaged in fishing just strutting along. You just have to be diligent. I didn't see anyone at the helm when they passed by. If you are on the water long enough, eventually you will see all kinds of stuff, even by LEO's.
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Old 25-04-2016, 19:26   #79
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Re: Almost run over.

Most of my boating is in straits/rivers/channels a mile wide and much less. It's all a matter of keeping constant/competent lookout and making common sense maneuver depending on the circumstance. Traffic consists of tankers, bulk carriers, car carriers, tug-pushed and towed barges, motor boats, sailboats, kayaks, and so on. That's much of the adventure. It's normal to pass ships within a couple hundred yards, and tug/barges much closer.
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Old 25-04-2016, 21:51   #80
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Re: Almost run over.

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
On a night sail from Bonaire towards Aruba we met a crude oil tanker lying a hull with only anchor lights on. Due the haze close the horizon it wasn't visible untill we were about 1nm away . Also becouse of the slow change of bearing we didn't spot it's mast anchor light earlier from the stars. Our CPA was about 1/2nm when they did their decklights on.
They propably saw us with radar but dunno for sure. No AIS or radar on our boat. Quite unexpected encounter..

BR Teddy
Yes, it is common. Sometimes they show up on Open Cpn which is interfaced with our AIS, as a little green ship with an anchor ball, not two balls, as you'd expect for NUC. Sometimes, though, their AIS's are not on or not working--who knows?

It's a great experience, that you had, though, because now you've learned to search for boat and ship-shape shadows in the darkness; it's a skill set that can stand you in very good stead. It was good of them to turn their decklights on for you.

As to the original post, it was a daytime event in which the skipper of the motor boat was careless in the extreme, and it would have been a good deed to report the incident. When enough paper trail exists, that the behavior is not a one-off sort of event, the authorities have a lot more to go on.

Had the incident occurred after dark, it is likely the OP would have twigged sooner, and been able to avoid the motor boat. Or, maybe the skipper would have been in the wheelhouse!

Ann
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Old 28-04-2016, 04:36   #81
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Re: Almost run over.

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Most of my boating is in straits/rivers/channels a mile wide and much less. It's all a matter of keeping constant/competent lookout and making common sense maneuver depending on the circumstance. Traffic consists of tankers, bulk carriers, car carriers, tug-pushed and towed barges, motor boats, sailboats, kayaks, and so on. That's much of the adventure. It's normal to pass ships within a couple hundred yards, and tug/barges much closer.
Exactly. While a mile spacing might be nice. 200yds doesn't imply danger in most situations.

Once aware of the other vessel, it doesn't matter if it's congested waters or not, it's pretty easy to estimate where that vessel is going. No not 100% but if you react early, the situations where you get it wrong and it's a close pass would be incredibly rare.
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Old 28-04-2016, 06:24   #82
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Re: Almost run over.

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Exactly. While a mile spacing might be nice. 200yds doesn't imply danger in most situations.

Once aware of the other vessel, it doesn't matter if it's congested waters or not, it's pretty easy to estimate where that vessel is going. No not 100% but if you react early, the situations where you get it wrong and it's a close pass would be incredibly rare.
On the contrary, 200 yards is one single cable, and that is an extremely dangerous distance to ever be from a ship navigating at normal speed, in any waters, with very few exceptions.

The only exception might be in some cases like those described by Mark, where you are following a narrow channel and are being overtaken. That's an exception because you know quite precisely where he will be, and he knows where you will be. Or he's following a channel and you're able to stay out of it.

To get within one cable of a ship navigating at speed in open water is pure madness.

Even in the congested waters of a harbor or approaches to one, you should never get anywhere that close to a ship navigating at speed unless you're following a channel, and being damned sure to be at the very edge of it with no deviations.

In a crossing or head-on situation, the problem is that it is absolutely not obvious, how you will cross with him. If you can detect a changing bearing with your naked eyes, you are crossing with a good margin. If you cannot detect a changing bearing with your naked eyes, and you are about to cross one cable from a ship moving at speed, you are screwed, and totally at the mercy of luck, because you do not know which way to turn. Because you cannot distinguish whether he's passing a cable to port or a cable to stb of you, or heading straight to run you down. Your eye can detect a collision course only by the same method we use with a HBC, and without a reference point, it cannot be more precise than that.

If the ship has a beam of say 40 meters, then there is a zone about 60 or 70 meters wide (one-third of a cable) which if you find yourself in when the ship passes, is a collision, because 10 to 15 meters from his hull you'll be sucked in by his bow wave and smashed against his side. At one cable distance, if you're crossing at right angles on a collision course aimed at the center of that zone, and he's making 18 knots, and you're making 6, you're closing at 19 knots or 10 meters per second. You've got 20 seconds to crunch. If you had absolute knowledge of your crossing, and you turned the boat right around, and you managed to do it in 5 seconds, and you then you managed to get back up to speed in the other direction in another 5 seconds, then you will miss being run down by only 55 to 60 meters -- an extremely near miss.

And the problem is that you don't have exact knowledge of the crossing -- it's Russian Roulette. If in fact the point of impact was not at his centerline, but 60 meters to port, just outside that side of the collision zone, then your maneuver wouldn't save you -- you're dead. And you for damn sure cannot distinguish a collision course, which has you impacting his bow right in the center, from a collision course, which has you impacted near his port side.

You are also dead if you make that maneuver, even if you were lucky and turned the right way, and he alters course himself in the wrong direction. The order of maneuvering under the COLREGS is out the window once you are within a mile --that's "in extremis", and if he hadn't seen you, and wakes up and tries something desperate, and doesn't just happen to turn in the right direction, that's your funeral.

And not just if he turns. Just normal deviations of course and/or speed -- no vessel follows an exactly straight course or holds an exactly steady speed. That's why professionals talk about the "cone of uncertainty" about the other vessels predicted position -- taking into account the accuracy of your information about his position, COG, SOG, and of your own, and also possible deviations of his course and speed. You are not safe unless you stay by all means outside that cone.


This is collision avoidance 101, and some of these threads make me think, despite my libertarian principles, that people should not be allowed to be in command of a vessel without taking a license granted only after taking a course and passing a test in this stuff. A lot of sailors, even some very experienced ones, don't bother to learn anything about collision avoidance, because they assume that they will just see what's about to happen, and just dodge out of the way. This DOES NOT WORK, because you cannot just see how you're crossing. This is exactly why commercial mariners call us WAFIS -- Wind Assisted F**** Idiots.

The reason why we are not killed more often in collisions, is because commercial mariners don’t let us get that close to them. In open water, they usually maneuver 10 miles out to pass at least one mile from us, which is too far for something stupid which we may do, to put us under their bows, and that’s their goal.
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Old 28-04-2016, 09:35   #83
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Re: Almost run over.

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
On the contrary, 200 yards is one single cable, and that is an extremely dangerous distance to ever be from a ship navigating at normal speed, in any waters, with very few exceptions.

The only exception might be in some cases like those described by Mark, where you are following a narrow channel and are being overtaken. That's an exception because you know quite precisely where he will be, and he knows where you will be. Or he's following a channel and you're able to stay out of it.

To get within one cable of a ship navigating at speed in open water is pure madness.

Even in the congested waters of a harbor or approaches to one, you should never get anywhere that close to a ship navigating at speed unless you're following a channel, and being damned sure to be at the very edge of it with no deviations.

In a crossing or head-on situation, the problem is that it is absolutely not obvious, how you will cross with him. If you can detect a changing bearing with your naked eyes, you are crossing with a good margin. If you cannot detect a changing bearing with your naked eyes, and you are about to cross one cable from a ship moving at speed, you are screwed, and totally at the mercy of luck, because you do not know which way to turn. Because you cannot distinguish whether he's passing a cable to port or a cable to stb of you, or heading straight to run you down. Your eye can detect a collision course only by the same method we use with a HBC, and without a reference point, it cannot be more precise than that.

If the ship has a beam of say 40 meters, then there is a zone about 60 or 70 meters wide (one-third of a cable) which if you find yourself in when the ship passes, is a collision, because 10 to 15 meters from his hull you'll be sucked in by his bow wave and smashed against his side. At one cable distance, if you're crossing at right angles on a collision course aimed at the center of that zone, and he's making 18 knots, and you're making 6, you're closing at 19 knots or 10 meters per second. You've got 20 seconds to crunch. If you had absolute knowledge of your crossing, and you turned the boat right around, and you managed to do it in 5 seconds, and you then you managed to get back up to speed in the other direction in another 5 seconds, then you will miss being run down by only 55 to 60 meters -- an extremely near miss.

And the problem is that you don't have exact knowledge of the crossing -- it's Russian Roulette. If in fact the point of impact was not at his centerline, but 60 meters to port, just outside that side of the collision zone, then your maneuver wouldn't save you -- you're dead. And you for damn sure cannot distinguish a collision course, which has you impacting his bow right in the center, from a collision course, which has you impacted near his port side.

You are also dead if you make that maneuver, even if you were lucky and turned the right way, and he alters course himself in the wrong direction. The order of maneuvering under the COLREGS is out the window once you are within a mile --that's "in extremis", and if he hadn't seen you, and wakes up and tries something desperate, and doesn't just happen to turn in the right direction, that's your funeral.

And not just if he turns. Just normal deviations of course and/or speed -- no vessel follows an exactly straight course or holds an exactly steady speed. That's why professionals talk about the "cone of uncertainty" about the other vessels predicted position -- taking into account the accuracy of your information about his position, COG, SOG, and of your own, and also possible deviations of his course and speed. You are not safe unless you stay by all means outside that cone.


This is collision avoidance 101, and some of these threads make me think, despite my libertarian principles, that people should not be allowed to be in command of a vessel without taking a license granted only after taking a course and passing a test in this stuff. A lot of sailors, even some very experienced ones, don't bother to learn anything about collision avoidance, because they assume that they will just see what's about to happen, and just dodge out of the way. This DOES NOT WORK, because you cannot just see how you're crossing. This is exactly why commercial mariners call us WAFIS -- Wind Assisted F**** Idiots.

The reason why we are not killed more often in collisions, is because commercial mariners donít let us get that close to them. In open water, they usually maneuver 10 miles out to pass at least one mile from us, which is too far for something stupid which we may do, to put us under their bows, and thatís their goal.
As I was steering a car carrier up the Solent once, a Southampton pilot told me a story about a sailboat he ran over. Well, not exactly ran over. The sailboat got in a lee and lost too much speed to get across the ship's bow as intended. Nobody on the bridge could see the boat in the final seconds, of course, but other boats in the area saw them attempting to maneuver this way and that, indecisively and ineffectively. The two idiots on the boat jumped overboard. The boat actually surfed down the bow wave over the bulbous bow and didn't even touch the ship even though it was a perfect T-bone approach. It was left untouched, sails a-luff, sheet adrift, spinning peacefully in the ship's wake. The two guys, RIP. I think you are more likely to get sucked into a ship in a narrow channel confined between banks than in a wider channel where the dynamics are much different.

Still, the more distance you can keep from ships, the better. Sometimes it is better to turn and meet a ship than to be overtaken, as well. And if you are in a narrow channel with shipping traffic present, with no engine standing by, you are indeed a WAFI in every sense of the word except of course when you lose the wind in the lee of a ships hull, in which case you have lost the WA part and would simply be a FI.

I too believe that any operator of any vessel should be licensed, even if no test is required. They need to have something that can be taken away from them, to keep them OFF the water or at least NEVER in charge of any vessel, if they screw up. You need a license to drive a car. To operate an airplane. Even a balloonist must be licensed. As long as it is understood that the licensed operator is responsible for knowing the Rules and knowing basic safety practices and procedures and how to navigate within the scope of his license, maybe an exam is not needed though it sure would be nice. I think it would be an acceptable compromise. It is not a RIGHT to go out on the water and endanger other peoples lives or property. Operating a vessel must be a privelege that can be withdrawn for cause of incompetence or carelessness.
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Old 28-04-2016, 21:24   #84
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Re: Almost run over.

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
On the contrary, 200 yards is one single cable, and that is an extremely dangerous distance to ever be from a ship navigating at normal speed, in any waters, with very few exceptions.

The only exception might be in some cases like those described by Mark, where you are following a narrow channel and are being overtaken. That's an exception because you know quite precisely where he will be, and he knows where you will be. Or he's following a channel and you're able to stay out of it.

To get within one cable of a ship navigating at speed in open water is pure madness.

Even in the congested waters of a harbor or approaches to one, you should never get anywhere that close to a ship navigating at speed unless you're following a channel, and being damned sure to be at the very edge of it with no deviations.

In a crossing or head-on situation, the problem is that it is absolutely not obvious, how you will cross with him. If you can detect a changing bearing with your naked eyes, you are crossing with a good margin. If you cannot detect a changing bearing with your naked eyes, and you are about to cross one cable from a ship moving at speed, you are screwed, and totally at the mercy of luck, because you do not know which way to turn. Because you cannot distinguish whether he's passing a cable to port or a cable to stb of you, or heading straight to run you down. Your eye can detect a collision course only by the same method we use with a HBC, and without a reference point, it cannot be more precise than that.

If the ship has a beam of say 40 meters, then there is a zone about 60 or 70 meters wide (one-third of a cable) which if you find yourself in when the ship passes, is a collision, because 10 to 15 meters from his hull you'll be sucked in by his bow wave and smashed against his side. At one cable distance, if you're crossing at right angles on a collision course aimed at the center of that zone, and he's making 18 knots, and you're making 6, you're closing at 19 knots or 10 meters per second. You've got 20 seconds to crunch. If you had absolute knowledge of your crossing, and you turned the boat right around, and you managed to do it in 5 seconds, and you then you managed to get back up to speed in the other direction in another 5 seconds, then you will miss being run down by only 55 to 60 meters -- an extremely near miss.

And the problem is that you don't have exact knowledge of the crossing -- it's Russian Roulette. If in fact the point of impact was not at his centerline, but 60 meters to port, just outside that side of the collision zone, then your maneuver wouldn't save you -- you're dead. And you for damn sure cannot distinguish a collision course, which has you impacting his bow right in the center, from a collision course, which has you impacted near his port side.

You are also dead if you make that maneuver, even if you were lucky and turned the right way, and he alters course himself in the wrong direction. The order of maneuvering under the COLREGS is out the window once you are within a mile --that's "in extremis", and if he hadn't seen you, and wakes up and tries something desperate, and doesn't just happen to turn in the right direction, that's your funeral.

And not just if he turns. Just normal deviations of course and/or speed -- no vessel follows an exactly straight course or holds an exactly steady speed. That's why professionals talk about the "cone of uncertainty" about the other vessels predicted position -- taking into account the accuracy of your information about his position, COG, SOG, and of your own, and also possible deviations of his course and speed. You are not safe unless you stay by all means outside that cone.


This is collision avoidance 101, and some of these threads make me think, despite my libertarian principles, that people should not be allowed to be in command of a vessel without taking a license granted only after taking a course and passing a test in this stuff. A lot of sailors, even some very experienced ones, don't bother to learn anything about collision avoidance, because they assume that they will just see what's about to happen, and just dodge out of the way. This DOES NOT WORK, because you cannot just see how you're crossing. This is exactly why commercial mariners call us WAFIS -- Wind Assisted F**** Idiots.

The reason why we are not killed more often in collisions, is because commercial mariners donít let us get that close to them. In open water, they usually maneuver 10 miles out to pass at least one mile from us, which is too far for something stupid which we may do, to put us under their bows, and thatís their goal.
I will agree with the WAFI if you are so stuborn, you don't hit the ignition and use the motor if your turn will leave you dead in the water or significantly slowed.

Head on, you turn so it's a non-issue. Been around big ships since I was a kid on the Great Lakes. They deserve a lot of respect and you stay away when possible but passing within 200yds is common place. You don't try to get that close but it happens and really isn't a big deal if you have been paying attention.
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Old 28-04-2016, 23:09   #85
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Re: Almost run over.

Cross the stern of the ship, not the bow.



But these are the vessels one has to worry about as they can be easily overlooked:

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Old 29-04-2016, 00:07   #86
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Re: Almost run over.

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Collisions only happen when BOTH boats are misbehaving and pushing the envelope..[/SIZE][/FONT]
No they don't.

A friend was sailing his 34ft boat off Auckland when a 45ft launch doing 25 knots (coincidentally I think it was also an Azimut) started overtaking him 300 yards away on his port side. Suddenly the launch did a quick 90 degree turn and without slowing, parked on top of his coach roof, the launch about two feet from where my friend's wife was sunbathing. It nearly went right over.

In the ensuing court case the driver of the launch admitted that he was changing a CD in the player and was no longer driving the boat.

Just another thing about unmanned vessels - several years ago I was sailing across the Indian Ocean 400nm south of SriLanka and came across many long-line fishing boats motoring along with the entire crew asleep down below. Their routine is staying up all night baiting up and laying over 25 miles of long-line (takes all night) then they turn around, program the autopilot to home in on the radio beacon at the other end of the line and go to bed.

Another interesting thing with those fishermen is that they believe that passing close in front of another vessel brings good luck with the fishing. This caused me to do many a "dance" trying to avoid them. Every time I tacked to avoid, they changed course accordingly. I only discovered the superstition when I got to Indonesia and discussed with other sailors in the club. I even had one steaming across my bow laying buoyed nets as he went!
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