Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-04-2016, 07:03   #46
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Huh!?! I didn't get that--AT ALL--from any of the posts!
Neither did I so went back to reread a few posts and still don't see that.

I will say that the two boats I encountered with no one at the helm on a collision course with me were both sailboats.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2016, 07:15   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
All this sounds good, except he wasn't seen until quite close, who knows why, maybe coming out of the sun?
Anyway, wasn't seen until quite close, and he was moving fast, unmanned.
There is just no excuse for that
I didn't read a post saying that Capt Bill didn't see the power boat until it was quite close. I read the comment that he started calling on the radio when the boat was about 1/2 mile off but I didn't see a comment about when he first saw the boat. Possibly I missed this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Truth is, I don't probably keep as good a look out as I guess I should astern, I could see this happening to me, boat that fast can come up on you before you know it.
Keeping watch astern is easy to forget. I was on a passage once, nice night, calm, broad reach, AP working and I got a bit complacent. After a while it occurred to me that I hadn't done a 360 look in a while. Sat up and less than a mile on my port quarter was a very large freight overtaking me. No risk of collision and CPA was over 1/2 mile but could have been otherwise.

Another lookout concern on sailboats is to remember to look behind the jib which can create a very large blind spot. I had a similar occurrence on another trip when I decided to get up and look behind the low cut genoa and saw a freighter on a reciprocal course about 3/4 mile off. Again no risk of collision but not due to any action on my part.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2016, 08:00   #48
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,198
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Almost run over.

Having been T-boned by a boat motorsailing into me while I was under sail in light winds and flat sea's, perfect vis'.. I can assure you all collisions are 50/50.. unless you hit a static object like a Nav mark, rock or legally anchored boat.. then its 100% down to you.
In my case I was solo, they were 2 couples.. all of us were below at the moment of impact..
I was cooking.. they were ????
I was aware of them.. but miscalculated/assumed/gambled...
I don't think they saw me till they came up from below.
Collisions only happen when BOTH boats are misbehaving and pushing the envelope..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2016, 09:00   #49
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: Almost run over.

By far the closest collision calls I've have involved sailboats!
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2016, 23:59   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,447
Re: Almost run over.

Dockhead, here's a sorta philosophical question regarding the "when do I start taking avoiding action when I'm the stand-on vessel"?

It's pretty clear that your methodology works well when interacting with merchant vessels, for they, even if poorly manned, tend to maintain course and speed for long periods. Thus, the decision process for deciding to avoid can be based on a reasonable extrapolation of the other guy's future position.

But, when dealing with other pleasure craft, that extrapolation is far less reliable. Other sailing vessels maneuver erratically at times, and we all know that some stink potters are just plain unpredictable. Thus, the idea of always maneuvering to maintain that one mile CPA is somewhat impractical. And in some venues (your Solent, for one) simply not possible, for there are far too many other vessels plying (in no particular direction) those waters.

In the case reported, the vessel was under autopilot control and did maintain course and speed... but how was the OP to know that? A murky situation IMO, though I agree that he delayed avoidance far too long... so how do you deal with other WAFIs? For us, in such conditions, there is a lot of ducking and weaving, assuming that most other amateurs are neither paying much attention not well versed in COLREGS.

Dealing with the pros out at sea is relatively easy!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 11:26   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,876
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Dockhead, here's a sorta philosophical question regarding the "when do I start taking avoiding action when I'm the stand-on vessel"?

It's pretty clear that your methodology works well when interacting with merchant vessels, for they, even if poorly manned, tend to maintain course and speed for long periods. Thus, the decision process for deciding to avoid can be based on a reasonable extrapolation of the other guy's future position.

But, when dealing with other pleasure craft, that extrapolation is far less reliable. Other sailing vessels maneuver erratically at times, and we all know that some stink potters are just plain unpredictable. Thus, the idea of always maneuvering to maintain that one mile CPA is somewhat impractical. And in some venues (your Solent, for one) simply not possible, for there are far too many other vessels plying (in no particular direction) those waters.

In the case reported, the vessel was under autopilot control and did maintain course and speed... but how was the OP to know that? A murky situation IMO, though I agree that he delayed avoidance far too long... so how do you deal with other WAFIs? For us, in such conditions, there is a lot of ducking and weaving, assuming that most other amateurs are neither paying much attention not well versed in COLREGS.

Dealing with the pros out at sea is relatively easy!

Jim
If he had taken evasive action at 1/2 mile and the power boat had changed course, assuming it wasn't at a common point of course change, that would imply the power boat was trying to run him down or he was incredibly unlucky.

Taking action early and making sure it's an abrupt and clear course change would have made it an annoyance but largely eliminated the risk and would do so in the vast majority of situations. If it's a sailboat tacking back and forth randomly, there would typically be far more time to figure out a course of action and it is far less likely that no one is at the helm if they are tacking.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 12:01   #52
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,033
Re: Almost run over.

Personally, I hate to light the engine for any reason. Noisy, expensive (fuel & maintenance), kinda ruins the calm. I have a deal with the engine, I don't bother it unless I need it, and it doesn't bother me, it gets to sleep all it wants.


But if someone looks like it MIGHT be bearing down on me? LIGHT THE ENGINE. NOW. Unless I'm positive I can sail out of the way. And worry about whether that's a waste later. So, with due respect I'd have to say the OP waited way to long to take evasive action. You just CAN'T assume there is a living soul on the vessel bearing down on you. (What, a zombie apocalypse is something new?)


Then there's the matter of authorities. I've called them rarely, but on the few occasions that I've called the USCG on the radio to report some arschloch for endangering, the USCG has always been real happy to check 'em out and write 'em up. And if they can't be written up, someone still remembers their name and responds with prejudice the next time they meet--as they usually do.


Such a shame the OP didn't have a recorder going during that radio call. To have a recording saying "There was no one on our bridge" would have been priceless. The captain would have been up on charges and the boat nailed to the dock, real fast.


One advantage cell phones still have over the typical VHF. (sigh)
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 13:14   #53
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: virginia
Boat: islandpacket
Posts: 1,833
Re: Almost run over.

Hoofsmit, your right. I sail and have found many sailors that dont know what an anchor ball is and have absolutely no understanding that when the motor is on and the prop is turning that they are now a power boat. I've heard many a "but this is a sailboat" comment. I'm sure there is ignorance in both. Car drivers are not much better.
__________________
That derelict boat was another dream for somebody else, don't let it be your nightmare and a waste of your life.
Badsanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 13:36   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: The Netherlands
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 430
Posts: 11
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
We've seen them before, anyone can drive (or not) a megayacht over there. We've had similar issues before, watched one beach herself trying To go directly in to compass cay as if there wasn't a giant sandbar there. The 33' cc they were towing almost speared them but grazed their side as it too got beached.

Sent from my PLT1077G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9505 met Tapatalk
__________________
Tjurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 16:11   #55
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
By far the closest collision calls I've have involved sailboats!
Me too!

In UK waters, the power boat drivers are much more courteous and professional than sailors, at least in larger powerboats. I have seen some horrendous fails in harbor maneuvers by power boats, but we should not be smug about that -- a powerboat with tiny rudders and huge windage is a totally different beast, in harbor maneuvers, than a sailboat.

I've certainly never seen anything like what the OP described.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 16:29   #56
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Dockhead, here's a sorta philosophical question regarding the "when do I start taking avoiding action when I'm the stand-on vessel"?

It's pretty clear that your methodology works well when interacting with merchant vessels, for they, even if poorly manned, tend to maintain course and speed for long periods. Thus, the decision process for deciding to avoid can be based on a reasonable extrapolation of the other guy's future position.

But, when dealing with other pleasure craft, that extrapolation is far less reliable. Other sailing vessels maneuver erratically at times, and we all know that some stink potters are just plain unpredictable. Thus, the idea of always maneuvering to maintain that one mile CPA is somewhat impractical. And in some venues (your Solent, for one) simply not possible, for there are far too many other vessels plying (in no particular direction) those waters.

In the case reported, the vessel was under autopilot control and did maintain course and speed... but how was the OP to know that? A murky situation IMO, though I agree that he delayed avoidance far too long... so how do you deal with other WAFIs? For us, in such conditions, there is a lot of ducking and weaving, assuming that most other amateurs are neither paying much attention not well versed in COLREGS.

Dealing with the pros out at sea is relatively easy!

Jim
"When to start taking avoiding action as the stand-on vessel" is NOT a philosophical question. It's very practical, and important question. To which (natch) there's no simple answer.

But in open water, on my boat anyway, soon enough to be sure that the other vessel does not get within a mile of us. Preferably more if passing ahead. There is tension between this and the imperative of standing on (which many sailors don't understand), but if you make an informed judgement that the other vessel is not taking action, then that gives you the right to take action yourself. To make that judgement, you must get inside the skin of a commercial watchstander and understand the time and distance horizons for their maneuvering, something few recreational sailors bother to do, unfortunately.

As to the OP's case -- here is the real gist of the matter.

The OP was obligated to be keeping a good enough watch that he had a good idea of what was happening on the superyacht pretty long before the situation became critical. In open water, you definitely do not want to be unaware of the CPA and TCPA of a vessel which is 10 miles away from you, and not on an obviously diverging course. Without AIS, this is a certain amount of work, but work which needs to be done.

So at 10 miles (at least) he starts tracking the superyacht, and by 5 miles out, he has 5 miles of data. If he hasn't changed course or otherwise shown that he is aware that the sailboat is there, then that is the time when you start getting ready to take action (maybe starting the engine as another poster wrote). At 4 miles, and the superyacht is steady on the same course and speed then it's obvious that he's oblivious, and now is the time to make your move. In such cases I like to alter to a reciprocal course, tacking if necessary. Let him go by, then tack back.

With the right process, this is no big deal and not a problem. No need to call anyone on the VHF or, for God's sake, shine any spotlights.

And that is how the COLREGS are designed. Under the regime established by the COLREGS, a collision can happen only with TWO idiots. If even one skipper follows the rules and does what he is supposed to, then no collision can happen.

It helps also to have the right attitude. Maneuvering to unwind a risk of collision situation is not an imposition. It's fun. It's what we go out to do. Handling the boat, planning and executing the maneuver, achieving the result, which is a safe crossing. It is totally wrong, and totally lubberly, to get angry and upset, continue standing on when obviously there is a dangerous situation, start shining spotlights, etc. The right attitude is to be HAPPY when you are sure that you are ALLOWED to maneuver according to the COLREGS, and set about handling your vessel and resolving the situation as the active player in the encounter. Being the stand-on vessel is no kind of privilege -- it is the burden of being the PASSIVE actor in the crossing, deferring to the give-way vessel which gets the ACTIVE role, and the right to work out the best way to cross. A real seaman is definitely happier when giving way, but only when he is allowed to do so.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 17:28   #57
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,447
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
So at 10 miles (at least) he starts tracking the superyacht, and by 5 miles out, he has 5 miles of data. If he hasn't changed course or otherwise shown that he is aware that the sailboat is there, then that is the time when you start getting ready to take action (maybe starting the engine as another poster wrote). At 4 miles, and the superyacht is steady on the same course and speed then it's obvious that he's oblivious, and now is the time to make your move. In such cases I like to alter to a reciprocal course, tacking if necessary. Let him go by, then tack back.
Umm, lets review his situation: daytime, clear, good viz, no need to be running the radar on a power limited vessel, the other boat is not transmitting AIS. How, then, is he to even be aware of the other m/v at "10 miles (at least)"? It would be hull down, wouldn't it? At 5 miles it would be quite visible, but not easy to determine its course and speed yet. So, while your process is viable for ships, I don't think it is so applicable to smaller vessels, and even a "superyacht" falls into that category. You have mentioned before that you often run your radar 24/7, or nearly so, and that you have functional MARPA. This is great, and does enable you to detect vessels early, even without AIS. For most of us, less equipped and less able to spend the power, visual observation is the common method of detection, and as noted, the range is smaller than you describe.

Yes, also from the OP's tale, he clearly should have maneuvered sooner. But, IMO, expecting to keep a minimum CPA of a mile is optimistic in many situations... and that is what my previous question was about, DH: what is your practice in crowded waters where there are many WAFIs and other less proficient skippers thronging about? There it is physically impossible to maintain the one mile standoff with all vessels, and many of them will be behaving erratically. What to do that satisfies your rigid interpretation of COLREGS? It is a real problem... and I have great sympathy as well as respect for harbour pilots in places like SF Bay on a weekend!

Please don't take all this as argument with you... I'm hoping to get a better handle on how one should behave in this new era of electronic aids and idiot boaters!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 18:15   #58
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Umm, lets review his situation: daytime, clear, good viz, no need to be running the radar on a power limited vessel, the other boat is not transmitting AIS. How, then, is he to even be aware of the other m/v at "10 miles (at least)"? It would be hull down, wouldn't it? At 5 miles it would be quite visible, but not easy to determine its course and speed yet. So, while your process is viable for ships, I don't think it is so applicable to smaller vessels, and even a "superyacht" falls into that category. You have mentioned before that you often run your radar 24/7, or nearly so, and that you have functional MARPA. This is great, and does enable you to detect vessels early, even without AIS. For most of us, less equipped and less able to spend the power, visual observation is the common method of detection, and as noted, the range is smaller than you describe.

Yes, also from the OP's tale, he clearly should have maneuvered sooner. But, IMO, expecting to keep a minimum CPA of a mile is optimistic in many situations... and that is what my previous question was about, DH: what is your practice in crowded waters where there are many WAFIs and other less proficient skippers thronging about? There it is physically impossible to maintain the one mile standoff with all vessels, and many of them will be behaving erratically. What to do that satisfies your rigid interpretation of COLREGS? It is a real problem... and I have great sympathy as well as respect for harbour pilots in places like SF Bay on a weekend!

Please don't take all this as argument with you... I'm hoping to get a better handle on how one should behave in this new era of electronic aids and idiot boaters!

Jim
I'm not talking about the WAFIs. I agree with you, that this requires different techniques. But fortunately their speed is also low enough that you can take effective action and quite short ranges, maybe much less than 1 mile.

A commercial ship, or superyacht, hull down at 10 miles should catch your attention. A bearing against a stanchion will tell you quickly if it is on a greatly diverging course so you can forget about it. But if it holds steady against the stanchion, then you damn well need to get the hand bearing compass out, yes, at 10 miles. Or 9 by this time probably, but still. If you're not running radar or receiving AIS from the target.

You really should not wait until 5 miles, which leaves you too little time to gather enough data to have a good idea about what he's doing, before the situation turns critical.

And for God's sake not 1 mile, as it seems the OP did.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 19:52   #59
Registered User
 
adoxograph's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ 'ʇsɐoɔ ǝuıɥsuns
Boat: Landlocked right now.
Posts: 355
Images: 1
Re: Almost run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Wasting time at work

But remember that's over 8 years.
still this means an impressive average of about 5 posts a day ...
__________________
adoxograph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2016, 19:58   #60
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Re: Almost run over.

I have to confess that my collision avoidance procedures are much closer to Jim's than Dockhead's. A lot of my sailing has been coastal Florida and the Caribbean where you might often have 8-10 big ships in a 10 mile radius, and off the FL east coast that many or more sport fishers and big yachts. I know this is minor compared to the traffic in the Channel but it was enough to keep my attention. With this much traffic there's often not room to have a minimum of 1 mile clearance between my boat and every other boat around.

For yachts, even big yachts, sailboats, sport fishermen, trawlers and such a 1/2 mile clearance in a passing or ovetaking situation always seemed like more than enough. Even for a ship less than a mile was not uncommon. In a crossing situation wider margins are preferred.

To get an idea of the limits I did the math on a worst case, potential collision scenario. A big ship is headed directly toward you and you're on a crossing course. Assume 20 kts for the ship and 150' beam, 40' sailboat and 5-6 kts. With those parameters in round numbers, it would take the sailboat 20-25 seconds to cover 150'. In that time the ship would cover about 800' or 1/8 of a mile. So one could completely cross the bow of a ship heading directly towards you when it's only 1/8 of a mile away. That same ship would take about 15 minutes to reach you from 5-6 miles away.

OF COURSE, I am not advocating anything like this, just putting this out there to give a feel for minimums needed for avoiding a collision. I still start evaluating another vessel's course as soon as I'm aware of them but unless I'm far offshore with only 1-2 vessels in sight, don't really start a close watch until 5-6 miles and have never felt pressed for time or had to make a quick maneuver to avoid anyone at the last minute.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Isotherm Freezer - Run, Stop, Run, Stop... Cruisin Cat Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 8 24-04-2014 19:06
Boot Camp ... No, I Mean Boat Camp - is Almost Over kim r Construction, Maintenance & Refit 3 05-10-2013 10:59
Almost Run Down by a Shrimper . . . cantxsailor General Sailing Forum 38 12-09-2010 11:22



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:58.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.