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Old 05-01-2012, 22:49   #91
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

I think the point has been made and now it's just a pissing match.
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Old 05-01-2012, 22:52   #92
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

there was a point?
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:54   #93
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

Just to flog a dead donkey again,

AIS is not radar, nobody is arguing that

The bang for buck argument antis are in effect saying you should buy a radar before say a depth sounder. In my view the cost and simplicity of AIS puts it up there with basic sailing instruments. Radar is and was never regarded in that situation.

In you have money buy everything, great, if your stretching your budget, then AIS represents a fantastic benefit for the typical costs involved.

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Old 06-01-2012, 05:16   #94
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pirate Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

And my arguement is its just something else to blame when things go bad...
75% of instrumental equipment on sailboats is non essential.... apart from the 'Feel Good Factor'
Having the latest gadgets does not a seaman make....
Considering the amount of 'End of the World', 'When the lights go out' threads there have been on CF its amusing to read the 'Indispensibilty' posts on here...
You guys are just setting a lot of folks up.... but then maybe you cruise to a schedule that forces difficult entries/passages in normally avoided conditions... the main cause of rescue's at sea..
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:18   #95
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

Wait ... Don't close the thread yet ... I'm not pissing ... Hese is my actual response to the actual original question:

In my high seas experience, yes, most commercial vessels required to operate with AIS seem to do so. Some do not for whatever reason. Others that may technically be too small to be required to operate AIS, but are ships from my vantage point, do not. About 90% the potentially harmful stuff out there does not operate AIS. Much of it never will: such as the floating islands of mangroves and palms, deadhead logs, etc.

AIS is useful.
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:58   #96
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
And my arguement is its just something else to blame when things go bad...
75% of instrumental equipment on sailboats is non essential.... apart from the 'Feel Good Factor'
Having the latest gadgets does not a seaman make....
Considering the amount of 'End of the World', 'When the lights go out' threads there have been on CF its amusing to read the 'Indispensibilty' posts on here...
You guys are just setting a lot of folks up.... but then maybe you cruise to a schedule that forces difficult entries/passages in normally avoided conditions... the main cause of rescue's at sea..
The problem I have with kit like this - is that they can be so damned useful ........I have only used AIS once (and then only as observer on another boat - as 3rd deckhand!) and that was accross the English Channel in good viz, made life easier - but can't say it was required.........In fog would have been a god send!.......... Found it far more useful when closing on the Solent at night to spot the track of the ferries (that being an area I am not familiar with and lots of shore lights)......albeit in practice was relying on the Skipper and being fairly relaxed on the "sh#t happens" front ..........on my own boat with no AIS I would have not attempted that part of the passage at night. With AIS I may have........whether that is a good thing (or not) is another matter .

Done only one other cross Channel trip (own boat as both Skipper & Navigator + 1 crew) and that being the other way (from England) and with no AIS (or Radar). No great dramas involved. I made sure the crossing was in good viz (I had no time constraints), and broke the trip up with a stop in Cherbourg (France), both for rest, to avoid a night passage / a long passage and also simply for the craic ......with AIS I would have done the same even though no problem - for me - approaching Jersey (and missing France / offshore reefs) at night or in poor viz, as been doing the same since a kid, when the Nav upgrade was a new pencil .......so closing on a fuzzy coast and not being able to place boat (or others) within 5 foot not an inherent concern.

Around here (for me) both AIS and Radar would be pretty much a waste of time - unless either could pick up Lobster Pot markers!

My conclusion? As money permits (doesn't get spent on the boat elsewhere!) will probably buy an AIS, as a nice to have item - sounds like a useful singlehanders tool on extended passages (Zzzzzz!) - and something that goes on my existing notepad as that will be onboard anyway (used mostly for the internet porn ). Radar? will probably never bother.
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Old 06-01-2012, 13:49   #97
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

Putting my commercial masters cap on for a minute, i think AIS (Transceivers) on small boats are one of the best thing’s since the wheel was invented, it makes the job and my deck officers and i 100% easier when trying to locate the little fellas in plastic or wooden boats....

From another thread....

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
As far as AIS goes, i would like to take this opportunity to thank those three Sailboats (if they come here that is) that had their AIS Transponders on when we where transiting Bass Strait last month.

We where towing a construction barge and the total length of tow was 1100m, the wind was blowing 35 to 40 and it was after midnight. We could not see the Sailboat’s, who where all between 8 and 15nm miles away and the radar returns where sporadic at best, BUT there AIS info came through with their course and speed beautifully (overlaid on the radar) showing a converging course.

This info allowed us to contact them giving our status and advising them to keep clear, to which they returned a thank you and let us know they had been monitoring us (on there AIS) and adjusted there course's accordingly.

Everyone was safe and happy....
Try looking at it from the other side of the coin instead of all this "me me me" stuff.....
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Old 06-01-2012, 13:52   #98
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

As usual I have learned and will continue to learn on this thread. As for the two with full bladders- what there was a match? Did'nt nodice .
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:14   #99
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Putting my commercial masters cap on for a minute, i think AIS (Transceivers) on small boats are one of the best thing’s since the wheel was invented, it makes the job and my deck officers and i 100% easier when trying to locate the little fellas in plastic or wooden boats....

From another thread....

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
As far as AIS goes, i would like to take this opportunity to thank those three Sailboats (if they come here that is) that had their AIS Transponders on when we where transiting Bass Strait last month.

We where towing a construction barge and the total length of tow was 1100m, the wind was blowing 35 to 40 and it was after midnight. We could not see the Sailboat’s, who where all between 8 and 15nm miles away and the radar returns where sporadic at best, BUT there AIS info came through with their course and speed beautifully (overlaid on the radar) showing a converging course.

This info allowed us to contact them giving our status and advising them to keep clear, to which they returned a thank you and let us know they had been monitoring us (on there AIS) and adjusted there course's accordingly.

Everyone was safe and happy....
Try looking at it from the other side of the coin instead of all this "me me me" stuff.....
I hope you appreciate the irony in your wishes .

FWIW although I have no interest in impeding any commercial vessels (both as I appreciate that folk are earning a living - and simply because commercial vessels are bigger!).......I am not here for anyone else's conveniance.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:40   #100
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Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I hope you appreciate the irony in your wishes . No idea what you mean there mate...

FWIW although I have no interest in impeding any commercial vessels (both as I appreciate that folk are earning a living - and simply because commercial vessels are bigger!).......I am not here for anyone else's conveniance. And it seems you totaly missed my point on this one...
If you think my point was to prevent us been inconvenienced, then you must have really sad outlook about others you share the seas with....
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Old 07-01-2012, 04:53   #101
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pirate Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
As usual I have learned and will continue to learn on this thread. As for the two with full bladders- what there was a match? Did'nt nodice .
Hey..... leave my Bladder outa this...
Can't have everyone saying the same thing...
it gets boring...
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:51   #102
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Quote:
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Do we have to have this exact same argument every time AIS is being discussed?

[*]AIS is a useful tool.[*]RADAR is a useful tool that costs approximately 10x an AIS setup.[*] One does not replace the other.[*] RADAR does many things well and is highly recommended.[*] AIS will only show AIS-transmitting objects, nothing else.[*] Neither one is an absolute requirement.[*] If you can't afford RADAR, you are still allowed to go sailing.[*] If you can afford AIS, it's a nice thing to have.[*] If you want both, get both.[*] Whatever fancy gear you have, you still need to look around ad keep a proper watch, you need to practice, you need to remember that electronics can fail.


Does that just about cover it?
Thanks for that.

This is getting ridiculous.

Sometimes we go from minimalist to, "you gotta have all these bells whisltes and an antenna farm on your bimini or you will die.

If there is anything noobs should get out of this it is that among the priorities for spending, after you have all the basic gear and you have your next boatthousand to spend, you will get much more utility from ais than radar.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:33   #103
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This is getting ridiculous..
The major perspective I'm not seeing reflected in this discussion is that the relative worth of instruments depends upon the venue. If most of my sailing was between tropical islands I doubt that I'd value radar half as much as I do here in SF Bay, or along the California coast.

A secondary perspective that newbs might want to consider is that radar requires a bit more skill to use effectively than AIS. The more training and experience one has with radar, the more valuable the tool becomes. But it's not something like AIS that you can just switch on and instantly realize its benefits. In the hands of a beginner, it's little more than a bunch of blobs on a screen. In many ways the new auto-tuning radars are worse for newbs than the older models that many of us trained on because on the new sets you don't absolutely have to learn how to adjust the gain even though there are many occasions where manual adjustment will provide a better picture of what's out there.

I find it tiresome that so much of the conversation on this forum revolves around affordability. Whether or not a given member can afford radar has little bearing upon its usefulness as a navigation tool. This same argument is applied to everything from having adequate ground tackle to rigging a boat properly, to maintaining necessary safety gear. The same guy who can't afford a life raft can't afford radar and can't afford.... Perhaps we should just recognize that there are many more people on the net who would like to cruise than can afford to do so.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:43   #104
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pirate Re: AIS Experience Offshore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
The major perspective I'm not seeing reflected in this discussion is that the relative worth of instruments depends upon the venue. If most of my sailing was between tropical islands I doubt that I'd value radar half as much as I do here in SF Bay, or along the California coast.

A secondary perspective that newbs might want to consider is that radar requires a bit more skill to use effectively than AIS. The more training and experience one has with radar, the more valuable the tool becomes. But it's not something like AIS that you can just switch on and instantly realize its benefits. In the hands of a beginner, it's little more than a bunch of blobs on a screen. In many ways the new auto-tuning radars are worse for newbs than the older models that many of us trained on because on the new sets you don't absolutely have to learn how to adjust the gain even though there are many occasions where manual adjustment will provide a better picture of what's out there.

I find it tiresome that so much of the conversation on this forum revolves around affordability. Whether or not a given member can afford radar has little bearing upon its usefulness as a navigation tool. This same argument is applied to everything from having adequate ground tackle to rigging a boat properly, to maintaining necessary safety gear. The same guy who can't afford a life raft can't afford radar and can't afford.... Perhaps we should just recognize that there are many more people on the net who would like to cruise than can afford to do so.
+A1.... very true...
But sometimes after reading a while it gets so stiff I can't resist a wind up... gets folks juices going and one finds out more with disagreement...
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:11   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash

The major perspective I'm not seeing reflected in this discussion is that the relative worth of instruments depends upon the venue. If most of my sailing was between tropical islands I doubt that I'd value radar half as much as I do here in SF Bay, or along the California coast.

A secondary perspective that newbs might want to consider is that radar requires a bit more skill to use effectively than AIS. The more training and experience one has with radar, the more valuable the tool becomes. But it's not something like AIS that you can just switch on and instantly realize its benefits. In the hands of a beginner, it's little more than a bunch of blobs on a screen. In many ways the new auto-tuning radars are worse for newbs than the older models that many of us trained on because on the new sets you don't absolutely have to learn how to adjust the gain even though there are many occasions where manual adjustment will provide a better picture of what's out there.

I find it tiresome that so much of the conversation on this forum revolves around affordability. Whether or not a given member can afford radar has little bearing upon its usefulness as a navigation tool. This same argument is applied to everything from having adequate ground tackle to rigging a boat properly, to maintaining necessary safety gear. The same guy who can't afford a life raft can't afford radar and can't afford.... Perhaps we should just recognize that there are many more people on the net who would like to cruise than can afford to do so.
Great post.

Radar is a specific tool for a specific job as is AIS. Trying to use a hammer to set screws is futility.

I am trying to be more broad minded when I consider posting. I sail in Singapore 90% of the time. I dont have a good perspective on the carribean or bahamas. I dont have a good perspective on SFO but it is growing as I get more time sailing there.

The issue with radar is that it is expensive. But if your sailing grounds have 100 days of fog each year the alternative is stay at the dock.

Bang for buck is relative. Neither radar or AIS is mandatory or necessary to safely sail and cruise. They are conveniences added to make passage making easier, safely or gain utility from the boat by being able to sail when the weather comes down.

Radar = good
AIS = good
Money in the bank = good

Its all about priorities
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