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Old 16-05-2012, 03:08   #16
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The EU makes the hunt for the pirates a laughing stock.
Given that EUNAVFOR is the largest group there , and they have the most pirate interdictions, I fail to see your point. The US actually has virtually no presence and has done almost nothing against such pirates. ( that's understandable as the red sea is not a major US shipping route)

I think you'll find the recent EUNAVFOR helicopter attack on land was hardly a laughing stock for the recipients.

The Russians just make a good you tube video that's about the size of their involvement.

The Chinese, Iranians and Indiian fleets have some good successes as well.
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Old 16-05-2012, 03:16   #17
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

Ok, you fail to see my point.

As I see it, knowing that the latest German catch of pirates were set free in Hamburg, provided with money and immigration status ..... that's the way the EU is responding. Similar attitude in Holland where the pirates are hardly receiving any serious trial and when, the sentences are laughing stock.
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Old 16-05-2012, 03:28   #18
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

now if we had taught them to play cricket or rugby when it was a british colony,they would'nt be liberating ships from their colonial masters...

we hardly ever get this problem in the west indies or around fiji and we have been plundering their resources for centuries...........
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Old 16-05-2012, 03:48   #19
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

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Ok, you fail to see my point.

As I see it, knowing that the latest German catch of pirates were set free in Hamburg, provided with money and immigration status ..... that's the way the EU is responding. Similar attitude in Holland where the pirates are hardly receiving any serious trial and when, the sentences are laughing stock.
I fail to see why harsh sentences does for any poor misfortunate somali at the level of the boatmen. At least these sentences will keep them out of putland, Just what for example would jailing them do. Remember the criminal legal code in most EU countries requires proof of the commission of a crime, merely surrendering to a naval force, hardly consists of one at all.

MacG, lets have an adult discussion here, lets leave the Rambo solutions to one side for a minute.

What we have here is a failed state ( and you could add Yemen into that as well) , now effectively under the control of "warlords". The ordinary people have simply no means to live. They cannot work , they cannot grow crops, they cannot feed their children or themselves. they have absolutely no security. They are more brutalized then any "hostage" in fact.

Hence you have a resort to piracy and other forms of land based criminality ( leaving aside the big gun organizers)

The Western military naval response ( primarily European) is merelyonly a short term containment activity. Why?, The area is huge ( almost the same as patrolling the entire easy coast of the US), hence "real time" interdiction is almost impossible without blanket air cover. Secondly pirates are not going to engage in armed conflict with western military forces, so in general they surrender. Now We , i.e. EU countries are primarily social democracies with no capital punishment, hence we must prosecute these combatants under domestic law . ( perhaps you would like a European Gitmo and the suspension of decency that brings with it)

The fact is asymmetric conflicts cannot and have not been solved by military activity. Take Afghanistan, which after staggering military resources, is in effect being handed back to the Taliban, from whence it was wrested.

No, if we , the west really want to resolve piracy, we have to do what was done to bring the barbary piracy to an end, re-colonise them, seize the country back from the warlords, establish by force a controlling police and government, and most importantly govern it so that ordinary people can put food in their mouths.

Of course, such colonialism is completely out of fashion, but its the solution.

Land based military action does continue of course, The African Union has a considerable military presence their, but this in itself isn't going to resolve the tragedy that is that whole area.

Its great cheering on the latest "youtube" event, showing a pirate boat getting blown up, in the West we invest much jingoism into the "might" of our military. Such nonsense of course ignores that the solution is complex, difficult, non-military and expensive. ( and of course is primarily a result of post European colonial problems)

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Old 16-05-2012, 04:05   #20
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

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n rebels, mutineers, serial killers and responsible for the mass murders on large scale in the east of the Harmatan countries of Africa.
That definition unfortunately in africa could be applied to almost everybody including westerners in the turbulent history of Africa.

as for Al Shahaab since their defeat in Mogadishu, they really are a somewhat spent force. we the west of course like to engage in our favorite sport of inventing Islamic Jihad factions and believing the are (a) the root cause of everything and (b) have far greater capacity then reality.

None of this deals with the reality on the ground for ordinary average Somalis, that these problems will not disappear until the area is secure and people can feed and clothe themselves without resorting to criminality.
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Old 16-05-2012, 04:08   #21
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

Dave, I agree with most what you bring along. That counts for the people in general but not so much for the organised criminals who run around with gold Rolexes and Ray-Ban shades.

It is correct that they do not fight the Naval forces. Their armament is too light for that and they know already that as long as they surrender they will receive no harsh treatment (which does not count for the US forces, Russians and Asian patrollers).

That Somalia is controlled by the warlords is completely correct. See Black Hawk down. There is no possible solution unless a large military force is taking over and disarm the Shahaab and Janjaweed warriors with their technicals (trucks with mounted guns).

The situation is not comparable with the one in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan almost the total population fights the US & other combined forces.
In Somalia the local population would not fight the intermediate forces rather welcome them. But the sub-military forces of the warlords are strong and numerous - plus very well armed, organised and provided with good intelligence and mobility.
Read Michner's book "The Horn of Africa" and you will learn that this part of the world has always been a problem.
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Old 16-05-2012, 04:31   #22
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

I am a student of Military history and yes the whole region has a turbulent history, but the current day problems can be directly linked to British Somaliland, and the subsequent cold politics that kept a violent dictatorship in power and they we pulled our support and the region collapsed into factions. ( well that has happen before has it?).


As to they welcome us in. Hmmm I seem to have heard that said before in (Afg,ir..., etc etc etc). I suspect that widespread land based Western military action ( which is what is needed initially) would probably as much inflame the region as anything else. Its why the less then effective African Union idea was suggested ( along with the western idea that it will not touch Somali with a barge pole).

Its further worth noting that there are significant factors due to the widespread drone bombing that is occurring in nearby Yemen and elsewhere There is widespread populations movements, new armed warlords etc being formed as a result of such actions ( and other military actions on both sides of the Gulf od aiden).

It will require nation building and we the west have no stomach,

I fail to see you view about harsh US or Russian involvement, the russian involvement has been massively overplayed on one or two "you tube" events. The US involvement resulted in a yacht crew getting murdered

The french and the brits have actively engaged and shot pirates, but events have demonstrated that hot pursuit of hickjacked vessels results in hostage deaths. The recent tendency has been to not use special forces after a "successful" piracy, but to try to interdict pirates before they take a vessel and where armed response brings little consequences to hostages
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Old 16-05-2012, 04:57   #23
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

up to post #30, I don't think I'm going to win the bet
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Old 16-05-2012, 05:05   #24
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

To prevent - yes that would (could) be the most acceptable solution, save for the many but' s.

I still am amazed why the political and social infrastructure has been deteriorating (not only in Africa) so progressively.

We are slowly going back to the medieval times when ships had to sail in convoys and the Navy's task was to protect the merchant vessels.
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Old 16-05-2012, 05:20   #25
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

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To prevent - yes that would (could) be the most acceptable solution, save for the many but' s.

I still am amazed why the political and social infrastructure has been deteriorating (not only in Africa) so progressively.

We are slowly going back to the medieval times when ships had to sail in convoys and the Navy's task was to protect the merchant vessels.

Yes an interesting comment. I believe we are in a profound period of change, one in which the Western worlds power and privilege is deminishing and will ultimately collapse and the Asia and in particular China will emerge as the global superpower. While such change is ongoing the fallout is increasing turmoil, instability and decadence.

China already controls much of Africa economically, it will no doubt flex its military muscle in the coming decades too.

What we are seeing is the turmoil around the decline of the US and Europe, swamped as they are in debt and uncompetitiveness. ( and the resulting decadence) .Just like the historical collapses (that took place in quite short order) we are seeing the same collapses today. You and I will leave this world at the sunset of such power.

"We live in interesting times"
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Old 16-05-2012, 05:39   #26
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

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Of course, such colonialism is completely out of fashion, but its the solution.
well, it's a solution. another one could be letting the obviously corrupt system in place provide some safety for their citizens, there are plenty of countries around that fit that model that we could sail past without issues.

i'm stupid or perhaps simple, i reckon a pile of money at infrastructure and trained police out of the populace would do it.

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the solution is complex, difficult, non-military and expensive. ( and of course is primarily a result of post European colonial problems)

Dave
but i wonder is it more expensive than the current approach? it can't be cheap to mount a chain gun onto a helicopter for instance (i didn't watch the video btw so exchange other nutty weapon as appropriate).
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Old 16-05-2012, 05:53   #27
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

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I agree but I'll bet this thread goes to the usual 2 groups...
1) Macho Marauder Internet geeks that wanna shoot-em up and
2) The..."Oh there goes those dang Amuricuns again".
If I may offer a 3rd option.

You'll never solve this by trying to find them on land. Somalia is a BIG place and like has been said before, they dont wear uniforms. No, what needs to be done is to take away their prey, ie, shipping targets.

ALL commercial shipping should be armed with the authority to defend themselves properly and ALL private craft should not be alowed into these waters without and armed escort. Not one for one, that would take up too much resorces but I don't think it would be to hard to do if they adopted a 'convoy system', similar to that used in the Atlantic in WWII. You would report to the authorities at one side or the other and then be lead accross in safety once a predetermined number of boats had joined the convoy. You'd then have safety in numbers as well as armed backup, enough to deter the pirates, most of whom are nothing more than fishermen armed with an old AK47 or two.

Financialy this won't be cheap but I think a sizable chunk of the budget could come from the insurance companies that cover this region, it's certainly in their interests after all. Also, the comercial and 'convoy vessels' would be paying some sort of fee to top it up as well. I'm sure many will hate that idea but everyone pays to use the panama canal, the only other option is to go the long way round the cape anyway.

Like a fire, take away the fuel and it will go out. Take the pirates targets away and they will dissapear as well.
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Old 16-05-2012, 05:58   #28
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

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well, it's a solution. another one could be letting the obviously corrupt system in place provide some safety for their citizens, there are plenty of countries around that fit that model that we could sail past without issues.
Yes but Somali has progressed way beyond that, the state has failed there is in fact no Somali but a series of semi-independent statelets. Of course most of these are muslin run and the west has its problems dealing with muslim statelets. ( Hence we are as much part of the problem). As I said Somali isn't a "country", that we "could sail past".

Quote:
i'm stupid or perhaps simple, i reckon a pile of money at infrastructure and trained police out of the populace would do it.
not a stupid comment at all. yes of course, money is needed. but first some resolution to the failed state has to be found, that isn't about building motorways ( that comes after that). The solution maybe some form of Balkanisation.


Quote:
but i wonder is it more expensive than the current approach? it can't be cheap to mount a chain gun onto a helicopter for instance (i didn't watch the video btw so exchange other nutty weapon as appropriate).
Of course maybe not, we ( the west) are often quite happy to spends quad-trillions on military activity and then suspend millions in aid , cause "we don't like the cut of your jib". ( a boating reference mods...)

No doubt if we just gave all the ordinary Somalis a job, piracy would disappear.


Piracy in Somali is on the wane, its now become a dangerous activity and many boatmen set out and never return. Ships are traveling through the area at 20 knots with active and passive defense mechanisms and are almost impossible to hijack, The pirates are forced to travel father and resort to lower value targets. The economics of funding piracy may hopefully falter and thats what will stop it.

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Old 16-05-2012, 06:21   #29
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

just as an side heres some stats



and heres the current tally of vessels held, You can see a definite trend

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Old 16-05-2012, 07:15   #30
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Re: Air attack on pirates today...

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LOL, as stated by a news service?
Must be true eh

What do you think the Somalian news service would be calling the crew's of the European helicopter gunships?

Do you think in their eyes they would be humanitarians or marauders?
If Somali piracy is not an organised criminal enterprise, what the hell would you call it? Is it organised? Is it criminal? Is it an enterprise? Yes to all three. So what on earth are you going on about Cat Man Do? I don't give a damn what your hypothetical Somali press might call the gunship attack (although the Somali government, such as it is, welcomes more raids ). I'm calling a spade a spade and this particular spade is the act of piracy, not a gunship raid. It's presumptuous on your part to think I or any other individual believes everything he/she reads in the press. If you're trying to make a point, doing it facetiously doesn't help.
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