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Old 11-10-2005, 16:41   #16
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There may be "within that group, a highly professional crowd of first class people", it is a very small crowd, which in itself is an oxymoron. As for "there are two brokers involved, one representing me and one representing the owner", I think that Yachs66 is bit confused - there may be two brokers, but each of them represents their own interests way before anybody elses!
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Old 11-10-2005, 17:36   #17
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correct that unless hired specifically as a buyers broker, all work for the seller (and we all work for ourselves). as to the number of good brokers - depends on where you are. here in new england i could give you several names of great brokers. when i was shopping for a boat in california, i walked out on half a dozen after 10 minutes - felt like a kid buying a used car. finally hooked up with a good one in long beach. he kept me from getting into a bad boat. i purchased a boat in the florida keys and worked with a great guy that i still call up just to see how the fishing is. bottom line is if you get a crappy broker you have only yourself to blame. the idea of just finding a listing and calling whomever answers the phone is not the best way to do business.
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Old 11-10-2005, 18:20   #18
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by the way, thermal, i was shopping boats when out in honolulu in april - lets just say i can understand why someone from that area would not be impressed with brokers in general. it is a different deal here. there is a heritage. may sound dumb, but it means something to be in that "group". most of these men and women have been highly involved in boats for most of their lives and some are second generation. they could have done other things and made more money. it is just one more way to have boats, especially quality boats, in your life every day. most sail, many race. it is not just a way to make a buck. that's why LA took me by surprise. one brokerage office looked and sounded more like a "boiler room" than a yacht broker - flashy guys working the phones trying pressure tactics, sense of urgency and the rest of that sort of bullshit to make a sale - and this was at a high end marina we all know. all they wanted to do for me was sell something (anything) floating at their dock.

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Old 11-10-2005, 21:45   #19
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True, I can't speak for any brokers out there on the other coast. I started my boat buying adventure in Southern California and looked at few dozen boats "represented" by almost as many different brokers. It didn't take long before before tuned out anything they had to say as I went about the business of sticking my head anyplace it would fit to check out the boats. Was still in that mode when I finally found my boat in Honolulu, and the broker was, well, just an unwanted accessory. He did have the key to the padlock though! Maybe I should have gone to Boston just for the experience of meeting a broker that wasn't lower than a snake's belly!
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:00   #20
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we have plenty of the other kind too if you get homesick. when i was looking, i saw a listing for a cape dory about 3 hours away. i called the broker - one i had never heard of and that was a concern - and asked if there were any major conditions with the boat that would be a problem. bla bla bla - he said no issues - bla bla bla - boat was in a marine yard but name / location didn't check out - my wife and i drove up, met him at a dairy queen - as soon as i looked him in the eyes i knew. i followed him to marina. it was a marina i had been in 3 months before, well established with a broker on site so the confusion over the name could be this broker protecting himself from splitting a commission. we put the ladder up and as soon as my head was high enough to see the deck, i saw the worst gelcoat crazing i have ever seen. cape dories are prone to the problem but this one was the godfather of all gelcoat problems - everywhere - looked like a topo map for the rockie mountains. the broker stayed on the ground which was a good decision. i gave him the news that there was an issue and he said "oh - that's nothing". i showed my wife the layout - i like the 35' CD and wanted her to see it. we discovered a bilge full of oil, problem with steering, loose rudder, lifting rail, delamination. probably more, but we were there for less than 5 minutes. you know that guy actually called me a week later with another listing.

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Old 12-10-2005, 09:24   #21
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Couple more cents worth....

IMHO

The idea that a broker, yacht or real estate, would be entitled to as large a sum of money as they usually glean from a sale for as little work is questionable (at best). Add to that the fact that many, if not most of the 'services' provided tend to serve little or no purpose in the sale of the yacht or property.

The surveyor (or home inspector) they might be prone to recommend would be the one most inclined to 'make the sale' because that is ultimately in their best interest.

If you are the seller, no one has greater motive to get you to 'low ball' your boat (or house) in order to peddle it with the least effort. If you are the buyer, then your agent is going to do all they can to get you to the table, with no concern for the cost.

That is how they are paid.

Now, I am sure there are people who might buy a boat without a survey if there was not a broker to recommend one (although I wonder if the lender or insurer would allow it, if the value was high enough).

For me and my money, I would much rather prefer to deal with the seller directly when ever I can (and pass on boats or homes where I can not).

Couple more cents worth....


With no disrespect intended to Capt. Lar
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Old 12-10-2005, 10:17   #22
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none taken, and if you can do it solo, you deserve the savings, but most need some "professional" services. as a seller it is harder to get exposure to sell. same in real estate - getting in MLS is what you pay for. listing brokers often do little else.
you are correct, also, that lenders will not give you a loan without a survey unless you put enough equity into the deal to cover their risk.
this tread started with a high end yacht with multiple systems being purchased from a distance. in that case, even if paying cash and experienced, i think you will be stuck will sellers' broker. first of all, not easy to get there, find a boat, contact the owner and eliminate the broker. i agree that seller broker really just finds the wallet. buyer broker is supposed to hunt for you and weed out problems. if they get a chunk of the seller broker's cut, not your problem. be aware that some seller's brokers resent buyer's broker taking a bite and may make it harder for you as a buyer. i had a few around here that wanted nothing to do with me when they learned i had my own broker. there is really no clear legal status - some split, some give a referral fee. alot depends on the people involved.

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Old 12-10-2005, 11:44   #23
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Bummer...when I saw the thread had become this long, I thought we might have heard from TJ.
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Old 18-10-2005, 14:58   #24
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My surreal boat buying saga continues….

Well, I some how managed to suffer through nearly a week on St Maarten. It was tough I’ll tell you, particularly for someone who lives in the mountains and boarded the plane with the temperature in the low 40’s. St Maarten was in the mid 80’s most of the time with some very bright sunlight which turned my tender skin several shades of pink. Yes, it was tough, but I managed somehow and even avoided having a coconut fall on my thick head! ;-)

As for the boat: In the end the trip was worth it. There is a pending offer from a fellow in Europe, but he’s attached many strings and I suspect I have a good chance of “doing the deal.” Now the real challenge is….do I want to?

The boat is not without problems, (but what boat is?). My greatest concern was the extent of rust in the bilge, well in most areas under the cabin sole. Of course, I’ll have the surveyor render an opinion, but I’m thinking the only way to really solve the problem will be to remove a good bit of the sole and lay down a thick coat of….well, what do you think? Coal Tar Epoxy? POR 15? What do you think?

I’m working with the broker now to structure an offer. I guess we’ll know pretty soon if my search is finally over and I can close that chapter and start the next, the refurbishing and preparing my “new” boat for extensive cruising.

My thanks to all for your good thoughts and great advice, it is certainly appreciated.

Regards,

TJ
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Old 18-10-2005, 15:25   #25
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The problem with steel boats is that the rust you see is pretty much never as extensive as the rust you can't see and the rust that you can't see is almost never in an area of the boat that you can get to such as under stringers and frames, or under tanks. There are a lot of good possible solutions out there for those areas that you can see but no good solution short of removing the plating to make a proper repair. My preferred solution for those areas where corrosion is accessible would typically be to sandblast the steel white and then coat with a zinc rich epoxy.

BTW, it would be helpful if we knew how old a boat you talking about about and where she was built?

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Old 18-10-2005, 18:10   #26
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She was launched in 1989 and is treated with foam down to the bilge. I don't think rust will be a problem under the foam as it serves as an excellent protective barrier, in the bilge is another story. Sadly, it does not appear the owner paid much attention to maintaining this area. Of course, we'll have a audiogram done and that should answer the question of the condition of the shell plating and frames where we can't inspect. The tanks are all intergal so we can pull the inspection covers and check those as well.

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Old 18-10-2005, 18:34   #27
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Built in Canada?

TJ,

Was that boat built in Canada?
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Old 18-10-2005, 19:21   #28
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I am not sure that I would be so certain that the areas behind the foam are so well protected. In my experience with boats of that general era, foam properly applied can be a a good barrier, but it can also trap moisture and air against the skin and actually increase the rate of corrosion.
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Old 18-10-2005, 20:43   #29
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The condition should be reflected in the price...

I trust that the price reflects the condition.
Replacement of hull plating is not uncomon in old steel boats, so find out how much this will cost before parting with your hard earned.
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Old 19-10-2005, 20:23   #30
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