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Old 18-02-2015, 10:50   #16
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

If you want to know what it's like sailing in rough conditions and learn first hand what you need to prepare for, do an open ocean passage that will simulate the type of sailing you plan to do. This man is one of many who offer that: John Kretschmer Sailing - Schedule of Training Passages, Expeditions and Workshops

And read. Everything you can get your hands on. Passages, races, mechanical books, electronic books, survey books, etc. Reading is the least expensive way to learn. While nothing can replace the actual experience, reading can better prepare you for what you will experience.
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:48   #17
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

Hi Matt,

Like your project. I'm doing a similar one, 42' steel double ended cutter. Much of my detailing is similar to yours. So I've been looking at a lot of the same questions.

Regards engines, with a metal boat I far prefer keel cooling to the usual heat exchanger. Keel cooled and a dry exhaust eliminate the most common failure areas on marine diesels. And they eliminate the need to buy a marine diesel. With this setup you can buy an industrial diesel for about half the cost. On my boat I have a Cummins 3.3L. They are available from 65 to 85 hp, with or without turbo. I bought mine for $3995 brand new from a dealer. They are compact, extremely reliable, and run at lower RPM than the typical Yanmar type.

If your hull type is what I recall it has a rudder skeg. This, if it is large enough, can be used as your heat exchanger. This can be a a very clean setup.

Dry stacks can be run out of the hull, just above the waterline, just like a wet exhaust. This is done by cutting a hole in your hull about 1 foot in diameter where your exhaust exits and welding in a circle of 316L stainless, 1/8" thick, into the hole. The exhaust is 316L also and is welded to the center of the stainless plate. The stainless does 2 things: one it allows you to have a bare, non-painted area around the exhaust exit to eliminate heat damage to the paint, and two the stainless has very low thermal conductivity so it severely restricts the heat which is transmitted to the hull.

There is now an American company which manufactures, in the US, galvanized 1x19 wire. I'd suggest you consider this as an alternative to the usual stainless. If the galvanized is painted with coal tar epoxy (which has about 10 time the flexibility of standard epoxies and is more resistant to water permeation) and then has a cover of closely fitting, thin walled UV resistant plastic tubing slipped over it (for UV protection) you will have a rig which is probably good for a lifetime. So long as it is protected from rust, galvanized is far longer lasting and long term reliable than stainless wire. It's also much cheaper. Another benefit to this is that the plastic tube covering is very slick and it reduces chafe significantly.

In the same vein, galvanized rig fittings have much to recommend them. I like to weld them up from 4130 or 4140 steel. Up the mast corrosion is not much of an issue, and these will be stronger and longer lasting than they typical stainless fittings.

Where you do need stainless for hi stress areas like rigging I highly recommend you look at duplex stainless. I use 2205. Rolled Alloys is a good vendor. Much higher strength than the 300 series stainless and much higher corrosion resistance. This is a far superior metal.

Regards, Paul
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Old 18-02-2015, 15:25   #18
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

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New bronze sea cocks.
I don't think that is a good idea for a steel boat.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:03   #19
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

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I don't think that is a good idea for a steel boat.

What are the concerns with bronze?

I have them mounted to a steel flange on a 1/8 buna gasket with stainless steel bolts. They are in the engine room so plastic valves are not an option. Dont want them to melt in the case of a fire.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:11   #20
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

Thanks again for the tips, very helpful.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:19   #21
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

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What are the concerns with bronze?

I have them mounted to a steel flange on a 1/8 buna gasket with stainless steel bolts. They are in the engine room so plastic valves are not an option. Don't want them to melt in the case of a fire.
Then stainless would be a good choice. Bronze and steel in close proximity in an electrolyte (salt water) is a lousy mix. I do not know of any steel or aluminum builders who install bronze seacocks.

The ideal solution in a metal boat is standpipes (seachest) with the valves accessible inside for maintenance.

You asked how to improve the boat and that is one answer.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:49   #22
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

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There seems to be no shortage of threads asking "what is the best blue water boat". I want to turn the question around and ask what can I do to my boat to make it make it a better blue water boat.

...

Still yet to decide on...the engine, laundry, refirgeration, scuba compressor and nav electronics.

Any thoughts?
Do you mean while she's still in the shed, or overall. If the latter, that's sort of like asking someone to recite Pi.

It also depends on where you expect to go. If you're going to high latitudes and remote locations you're preparation is going to be significantly different than if you're trade wind cruising.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:52   #23
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

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Then stainless would be a good choice. Bronze and steel in close proximity in an electrolyte (salt water) is a lousy mix. I do not know of any steel or aluminum builders who install bronze seacocks.

The ideal solution in a metal boat is standpipes (seachest) with the valves accessible inside for maintenance.

You asked how to improve the boat and that is one answer.
Thank you. I welcome any input that I can learn from. This is how I set them up. Sound and fire proofing was added after this photo was taken.
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Old 18-02-2015, 17:20   #24
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

If you use insulating washers under the nuts and insulating bushings to keep the bolt from touching the bronze then electrolysis will not be an issue.

Although there are those who will dispute this, 316 pipe feed thrus work very well in the real world for feed thrus which are too small to clean and paint inside. If they are large enough to clean and paint internally then steel is best.
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Old 18-02-2015, 17:55   #25
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

LiFePO battery bank. Spare LiFePO for starter back-up. Spare starter motor.
In-built Diesel polishing system.
Paper charts & hand-held GPS & Sails suitable for limping along in stormy weather.
System for easy release and retrieval of drogue.
Two manual bilge pumps.
New gen anchor with all chain rode.
All suitably sized.
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Old 18-02-2015, 20:14   #26
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

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Thank you. I welcome any input that I can learn from. This is how I set them up. Sound and fire proofing was added after this photo was taken.
Standpipes in effect.

This is what I meant be seachest:



Note removable plate on top for cleanout.
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Old 18-02-2015, 20:54   #27
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

We have a similar boat. 44' Alan Pape, 20 ton. It can be a lot of boat to handle.

I'm assuming you will be either alone or with your Missus. In either case you need to think about single hand sailing. How can SHE handle the boat if you go down?

Some things I did were mast steps and strong track and additional bigger winches and a boom break and spare halyards. I mounted bigger mains so that I could handle them from the wheel by myself. I consider the boom break a safety necessity, especially when single handing, just too much going on a once.

I didn't see mention of either a wind vane or an auto pilot. Absolute necessity if you are to do any passages. We have an Aries and a CPT ( not yet installed.). I have gigged the Aries to work off a tiller pilot, but I think the CPT will be better. We shall see.

If you want to live aboard and experience colder climes then heat. We have an Espar D4. I have a VERY simple setup. If doing any serious cold weather sailing in that size boat I would consider two D4's. Keep the ducting short and have backup.

We have a 5' bowsprit. It rusted out, dissimilar metals to the anchors, or so it seems. I replaced that with a more robust sprit/anchoring platform out of 316 and regigged the rollers to accommodate roll bar next gen anchors. I moved them forward and outboard so they clear the boomkin. In mud bottoms a wash down would be real nice, I gotta figure that out.

Drogue, and a way to store and deploy some serious rode if your crossing big water.

Sail inventory. We got newish heavy weather sails with the boat, but I've had to buy light air sails to keep her moving when it goes light.

I don't like propane, so I have converted to a kerosene cooker. I'm odd in that way.

Dodger, hard if possible.
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Old 18-02-2015, 21:58   #28
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

If you aren't already I would suggest taking classes on Diesel engine repair and electrical systems.

Next up would be to ensure every piece of gear on board is as simple, robust and oversized as possible. Undersized deck gear means you work harder to do everything, and is prone to breakage. Oversized winches, oversized blocks, and easily manipulated tracks are critical to a boat working easily.

Redundancy in critical systems is also important. This doesn't just mean double equipment, but also being able to swap quickly. So knowing how to re-rout port sheets to the starboard winch, or switch over to turning blocks if the jib track fails, ect... The goal is to be able to make do if something goes wrong and have a plan to deal with a system failure.
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Old 18-02-2015, 23:50   #29
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Re: A twist on "The best blue water boat" question.

Suggestions.
Good solid electrics, go with external regulators and diodes not battery switches. Ideally seperate 'ships battery' as well as house and start.
Keep electronics tough and simple - look at the stuff the fishermen fit rather than yacht chandlers. Some of it looks 'industrial' but its much more reliable.
Don't skimp on sails triple stitching and some leather really extends the life.
Carry a good tool kit and minimize kit you can't repair. Trying to find fancy parts even in places like the Caribbean can be expensive and frustrating. Basic manual backups that will last you till your next port are great.
Lovely boat, enjoy her
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