A Good Surveyor Does Not Guarantee a Good Survey

[Teknav]

Hi Illusion! If you write negative comments about a surveyor or a contractor, it can impact his/her livelihood. Rightfully or wrongfully about what you've written from your experience, you could be sued for libel and for defamation of character, among other can of worms. Word of mouth about a surveyor is NOT good enough for me. Did the surveyor apply himself/herself in studying and practicing "marine surveying"?; working knowledge of propulsion/engine, electricity/electronics, structural design/fabrication, involvement in boat buildings/servicing/repairs and for how long? (The surveyors that you see on the road, are all licensed. They have taken surveying classes (Civil Engineering program), attended lengthy internship and passed stringent state exams prior to earning their license.) If a surveyor cannot show proof of his background/education, no amount of word of mouth will cut it. Every profession has tons of charlatans praying on the gullible; now you know better.

Mauritz

[letsgetsailing3]

I need a good surveyor/consultant for an old boat in the Keys, and so far, no joy.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Teknav

Hi Flames! You really need an EE, a ME and a Structural Engineer to inspect a boat. The way to go about it...Graduate Engineering students, under the supervision of their professors could be asked to do detailed inspections. Every Engineering dept. would welcome such opportunity for their students. You'll want to work out the logistics cost and the treats with the respective professors. It has been several decades since I've been in academia, but I can still contact the right people at any Engineering University and get them involved in my projects.

Mauritz
More than one way to fillet a fish!

Yeah, get a bunch of people who don't know boats at all to survey for ya! Don't think so.



Said it before and I'll say it again. If you want a REAL survey, call the pros who do this for a living. Get the guy who will be your mechanic to do an engine survey, including bids for repairs. Get your intended long term rigger to do a rig survey, including a bid for repairs. Get your painter/glass guy to survey the hull and decks, including a bid for repairs. Get your sailmaker to inspect the sails, and so on and so forth. All of these people will do bids for free (generally speaking), and have every incentive to find every little teeny flaw, as it means work for them. They also have incentive to give an accurate bid, as they are the ones who will have to deliver on that number. I would never ever hire a surveyor until after having all the pros who will be caring for the boat look at it. The surveyor exists strictly to consecrate the deal for the insurance company. His only real concern is keeping insurance companies and brokers (his return clientele) happy. The other guys will actually have to deal with boat and owner long term. You will probably never see the surveyor again after his survey, and he knows this. The other guys will do an excellent job for free, to get the work. The surveyor will stick you good for nothing. Remember, most surveyors were once in the industry but retired. Because they don't want to do actual work.

[FLLCatsailor]

Originally Posted by SVI

Related question:
if I buy the ex-charter boat from a charter company (phased out already), is it normal to ask a week charter on it? With the condition that if I do not buy it, I will just pay pre-agreed weekly charter rate? And if I buy it, charter week will be free?
I guess you will find all the major problems using it a week.

Also, if you make the offer for the boat "in fully operative charter-ready condition" and something does not work, will the Seller repair/replace before final settlement?

I used to sell charter boats for the big company and they heavily discourage people from chartering before buying...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by minaret

Yeah, get a bunch of people who don't know boats at all to survey for ya! Don't think so.



Said it before and I'll say it again. If you want a REAL survey, call the pros who do this for a living. Get the guy who will be your mechanic to do an engine survey, including bids for repairs. Get your intended long term rigger to do a rig survey, including a bid for repairs. Get your painter/glass guy to survey the hull and decks, including a bid for repairs. Get your sailmaker to inspect the sails, and so on and so forth. All of these people will do bids for free (generally speaking), and have every incentive to find every little teeny flaw, as it means work for them. They also have incentive to give an accurate bid, as they are the ones who will have to deliver on that number. I would never ever hire a surveyor until after having all the pros who will be caring for the boat look at it. The surveyor exists strictly to consecrate the deal for the insurance company. His only real concern is keeping insurance companies and brokers (his return clientele) happy. The other guys will actually have to deal with boat and owner long term. You will probably never see the surveyor again after his survey, and he knows this. The other guys will do an excellent job for free, to get the work. The surveyor will stick you good for nothing. Remember, most surveyors were once in the industry but retired. Because they don't want to do actual work.

All well and good for the guy with lotsa cash to spare and only goes out occasionally to the nearest bay for w/end picnics... and wants insurance cover for everything including replacement/rescue and death... at cost today..
My suggestion is DIY... none of it is rocket science... just folk like to make it seem that way... bit like wiping your ass..
Never been in a classroom but can fix engines/rigging/FG repairs/elec's etc (ability to read and absorb useful).... and you don't need a survey for liability... and the best person to save your ass... is you... your insurance broker will be nowhere in sight... he's to busy coming up with schemes to avoid a payout...
Full cover is only for folk who need to protect themselves... from themselves...
Rule No 1
Never buy more than you can afford to lose...

It don't make you more 'Endowed' if you finance... Honest..

[minaret]

Originally Posted by boatman61

All well and good for the guy with lotsa cash to spare and only goes out occasionally to the nearest bay for w/end picnics... and wants insurance cover for everything including replacement/rescue and death... at cost today..
My suggestion is DIY... none of it is rocket science... just folk like to make it seem that way... bit like wiping your ass..
Never been in a classroom but can fix engines/rigging/FG repairs/elec's etc.... and you don't need a survey for liability... and the best person to save your ass... is you... your insurance broker will be nowhere in sight... he's to busy coming up with schemes to avoid a payout...
Full cover is only for folk who need to protect themselves... from themselves...
Rule No 1
Never buy more than you can afford to lose...

It don't make you more 'Endowed' if you finance... Honest..

Oh, I couldn't agree more. Problem is, the insurance mob over here in the US is very good at strong arming boaters. If you don't have insurance, you can't get a slip. My marina, and many others, has a million dollar liability minimum. Most insurance companies want a survey every two years, some every five. Hence the surveyors have you over a barrel. And they know it.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

Yeah, get a bunch of people who don't know boats at all to survey for ya! Don't think so.



Said it before and I'll say it again. If you want a REAL survey, call the pros who do this for a living. Get the guy who will be your mechanic to do an engine survey, including bids for repairs. Get your intended long term rigger to do a rig survey, including a bid for repairs. Get your painter/glass guy to survey the hull and decks, including a bid for repairs. Get your sailmaker to inspect the sails, and so on and so forth. All of these people will do bids for free (generally speaking), and have every incentive to find every little teeny flaw, as it means work for them. They also have incentive to give an accurate bid, as they are the ones who will have to deliver on that number. I would never ever hire a surveyor until after having all the pros who will be caring for the boat look at it. The surveyor exists strictly to consecrate the deal for the insurance company. His only real concern is keeping insurance companies and brokers (his return clientele) happy. The other guys will actually have to deal with boat and owner long term. You will probably never see the surveyor again after his survey, and he knows this. The other guys will do an excellent job for free, to get the work. The surveyor will stick you good for nothing. Remember, most surveyors were once in the industry but retired. Because they don't want to do actual work.

Minaret.... EXCELLENT ADVICE!!!

With regard to surveying... I wouldn't dream of not doing it myself... AND... Thoroughly...Like a full day or more... If you don't have a thousand pictures and 5 pages of notes... you didn't do your job... After I'm convinced of the relative condition, and still going forward with the deal.... I HIRE a SURVEYOR... Tell him to skip all the crap ... i.e. checking the fridge/stove/taps/electronics/lighting etc..... If you can't check all of this and more, you have no business owning a boat... Use him to look for major flaws you might have missed, and tell him you want this to cover your insurance survey as well... Insurance companies won't take yours or captain Ron's self survey ....

If you are not capable of doing your own survey, they are PLENTY of salty folk at the docks who would jump at a couple hundred dollars and a case of beer for spending the day looking at your prospective purchase...
.

[zeehag]

exactly what boaty sed....

if you want a GOOD surveyor, go out with everyone you know who knows anything about boats and crawl thru bilges.

wood boats are fascinating---their joinery and what makes em be what they are and how they are built...and what makes em sink and rot...very very interesting.
what, says you, does wood boat knowledge have to do with fg boat knowledge....rodlmao--

you would know if you knew boats.

learn all you can before you try to buy.

find an old salt to teach you as much as possible and show you what the problem looks and smells like, as well a show to fix it.

asa 101 - 104, etc are all well and good but do they teach you how to troubleshoot your new lifestyle...

dont have to be an engineer with a degree. just have to be aware of your surroundings and what makes them work.
and how to repair when there is a problem as well as what that problem is and how it presents to you.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

Oh, I couldn't agree more. Problem is, the insurance mob over here in the US is very good at strong arming boaters. If you don't have insurance, you can't get a slip. My marina, and many others, has a million dollar liability minimum. Most insurance companies want a survey every two years, some every five. Hence the surveyors have you over a barrel. And they know it.

DING.... DING... DING!!!

I neglected to make this point in my previous post.... Every single marina I have berthed in REQUIRED liability insurance... And you can't get it without a SAMS/NAMS surveyor to green light it....

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

DING.... DING... DING!!!

I neglected to make this point in my previous post.... Every single marina I have berthed in REQUIRED liability insurance... And you can't get it without a SAMS/NAMS surveyor to green light it....

Ahh well... you choose to live with oppression... this side we are more realistic... owners crash into other boats... without them boats are extremely well behaved.. so don't need surveys for just liability...
Don't complain coz your in the ****... you let it happen..

[Crimea Cruiser]

Originally Posted by boatman61

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]
Rule No 1
Never buy more than you can afford to lose...

It don't make you more 'Endowed' if you finance... Honest..

More true wisdom from the Boatman!

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Teknav

Hi Illusion! If you write negative comments about a surveyor or a contractor, it can impact his/her livelihood. Rightfully or wrongfully about what you've written from your experience, you could be sued for libel and for defamation of character, among other can of worms. Word of mouth about a surveyor is NOT good enough for me. Did the surveyor apply himself/herself in studying and practicing "marine surveying"?; working knowledge of propulsion/engine, electricity/electronics, structural design/fabrication, involvement in boat buildings/servicing/repairs and for how long? (The surveyors that you see on the road, are all licensed. They have taken surveying classes (Civil Engineering program), attended lengthy internship and passed stringent state exams prior to earning their license.) If a surveyor cannot show proof of his background/education, no amount of word of mouth will cut it. Every profession has tons of charlatans praying on the gullible; now you know better.

Mauritz

If that were true, there would be no reviews on amazon, consumer reports, eham.com, Angie's list, etc...

No liability accrues from writing reviews based on factual observation, experience or knowledge.

Simply complaining here serves no purpose especially in a short-lived thread destined for obscurity.

Surveys can serve as essential tools, particularly for the average boater, who only thinks he knows everything when put in the proper context. That we have all these Internet-experts who place no value on a good and thorough survey does a disservice to that set of people.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

If that were true, there would be no reviews on amazon, consumer reports, eham.com, Angie's list, etc...

No liability accrues from writing reviews based on factual observation, experience or knowledge.

Simply complaining here serves no purpose especially in a short-lived thread destined for obscurity.

Surveys can serve as essential tools, particularly for the average boater, who only thinks he knows everything when put in the proper context. That we have all these Internet-experts who place no value on a good and thorough survey does a disservice to that set of people.

You may be happy gambling your life and home on someone else's 'knowledge'...
I'm not... that's also why I never 'Crew'...

[zeehag]

liability insurance does not need a survey. replacement insurance does require a survey.
liability only is merely 3rd party responsibility, no survey required. ask me how i know......

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahh well... you choose to live with oppression... this side we are more realistic... owners crash into other boats... without them boats are extremely well behaved.. so don't need surveys for just liability...
Don't complain coz your in the ****... you let it happen..

A more appropriate statement was never made.... We sue the crap out of each other 'cause we're entitled to do so....

Some things about the US just defy explanation....