Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-06-2013, 08:08   #31
Registered User
 
Teknav's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Texas - USA
Boat: Twin Otter de Havilland Floatplane
Posts: 1,838
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Hi Illusion! If you write negative comments about a surveyor or a contractor, it can impact his/her livelihood. Rightfully or wrongfully about what you've written from your experience, you could be sued for libel and for defamation of character, among other can of worms. Word of mouth about a surveyor is NOT good enough for me. Did the surveyor apply himself/herself in studying and practicing "marine surveying"?; working knowledge of propulsion/engine, electricity/electronics, structural design/fabrication, involvement in boat buildings/servicing/repairs and for how long? (The surveyors that you see on the road, are all licensed. They have taken surveying classes (Civil Engineering program), attended lengthy internship and passed stringent state exams prior to earning their license.) If a surveyor cannot show proof of his background/education, no amount of word of mouth will cut it. Every profession has tons of charlatans praying on the gullible; now you know better.

Mauritz
__________________

__________________
Retired - Don't Ask Me To Do A Damn Thing!
Teknav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:09   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,440
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

I need a good surveyor/consultant for an old boat in the Keys, and so far, no joy.
__________________

__________________
letsgetsailing3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:12   #33
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,201
Images: 52
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknav View Post
Hi Flames! You really need an EE, a ME and a Structural Engineer to inspect a boat. The way to go about it...Graduate Engineering students, under the supervision of their professors could be asked to do detailed inspections. Every Engineering dept. would welcome such opportunity for their students. You'll want to work out the logistics cost and the treats with the respective professors. It has been several decades since I've been in academia, but I can still contact the right people at any Engineering University and get them involved in my projects.

Mauritz
More than one way to fillet a fish!


Yeah, get a bunch of people who don't know boats at all to survey for ya! Don't think so.



Said it before and I'll say it again. If you want a REAL survey, call the pros who do this for a living. Get the guy who will be your mechanic to do an engine survey, including bids for repairs. Get your intended long term rigger to do a rig survey, including a bid for repairs. Get your painter/glass guy to survey the hull and decks, including a bid for repairs. Get your sailmaker to inspect the sails, and so on and so forth. All of these people will do bids for free (generally speaking), and have every incentive to find every little teeny flaw, as it means work for them. They also have incentive to give an accurate bid, as they are the ones who will have to deliver on that number. I would never ever hire a surveyor until after having all the pros who will be caring for the boat look at it. The surveyor exists strictly to consecrate the deal for the insurance company. His only real concern is keeping insurance companies and brokers (his return clientele) happy. The other guys will actually have to deal with boat and owner long term. You will probably never see the surveyor again after his survey, and he knows this. The other guys will do an excellent job for free, to get the work. The surveyor will stick you good for nothing. Remember, most surveyors were once in the industry but retired. Because they don't want to do actual work.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:23   #34
Marine Service Provider
 
FLLCatsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVI View Post
Related question:
if I buy the ex-charter boat from a charter company (phased out already), is it normal to ask a week charter on it? With the condition that if I do not buy it, I will just pay pre-agreed weekly charter rate? And if I buy it, charter week will be free?
I guess you will find all the major problems using it a week.

Also, if you make the offer for the boat "in fully operative charter-ready condition" and something does not work, will the Seller repair/replace before final settlement?
I used to sell charter boats for the big company and they heavily discourage people from chartering before buying...
__________________
FLLCatsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:29   #35
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,222
Images: 2
pirate Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Yeah, get a bunch of people who don't know boats at all to survey for ya! Don't think so.



Said it before and I'll say it again. If you want a REAL survey, call the pros who do this for a living. Get the guy who will be your mechanic to do an engine survey, including bids for repairs. Get your intended long term rigger to do a rig survey, including a bid for repairs. Get your painter/glass guy to survey the hull and decks, including a bid for repairs. Get your sailmaker to inspect the sails, and so on and so forth. All of these people will do bids for free (generally speaking), and have every incentive to find every little teeny flaw, as it means work for them. They also have incentive to give an accurate bid, as they are the ones who will have to deliver on that number. I would never ever hire a surveyor until after having all the pros who will be caring for the boat look at it. The surveyor exists strictly to consecrate the deal for the insurance company. His only real concern is keeping insurance companies and brokers (his return clientele) happy. The other guys will actually have to deal with boat and owner long term. You will probably never see the surveyor again after his survey, and he knows this. The other guys will do an excellent job for free, to get the work. The surveyor will stick you good for nothing. Remember, most surveyors were once in the industry but retired. Because they don't want to do actual work.
All well and good for the guy with lotsa cash to spare and only goes out occasionally to the nearest bay for w/end picnics... and wants insurance cover for everything including replacement/rescue and death... at cost today..
My suggestion is DIY... none of it is rocket science... just folk like to make it seem that way... bit like wiping your ass..
Never been in a classroom but can fix engines/rigging/FG repairs/elec's etc (ability to read and absorb useful).... and you don't need a survey for liability... and the best person to save your ass... is you... your insurance broker will be nowhere in sight... he's to busy coming up with schemes to avoid a payout...
Full cover is only for folk who need to protect themselves... from themselves...
Rule No 1
Never buy more than you can afford to lose...

It don't make you more 'Endowed' if you finance... Honest..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:33   #36
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,201
Images: 52
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
All well and good for the guy with lotsa cash to spare and only goes out occasionally to the nearest bay for w/end picnics... and wants insurance cover for everything including replacement/rescue and death... at cost today..
My suggestion is DIY... none of it is rocket science... just folk like to make it seem that way... bit like wiping your ass..
Never been in a classroom but can fix engines/rigging/FG repairs/elec's etc.... and you don't need a survey for liability... and the best person to save your ass... is you... your insurance broker will be nowhere in sight... he's to busy coming up with schemes to avoid a payout...
Full cover is only for folk who need to protect themselves... from themselves...
Rule No 1
Never buy more than you can afford to lose...

It don't make you more 'Endowed' if you finance... Honest..


Oh, I couldn't agree more. Problem is, the insurance mob over here in the US is very good at strong arming boaters. If you don't have insurance, you can't get a slip. My marina, and many others, has a million dollar liability minimum. Most insurance companies want a survey every two years, some every five. Hence the surveyors have you over a barrel. And they know it.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:37   #37
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Yeah, get a bunch of people who don't know boats at all to survey for ya! Don't think so.



Said it before and I'll say it again. If you want a REAL survey, call the pros who do this for a living. Get the guy who will be your mechanic to do an engine survey, including bids for repairs. Get your intended long term rigger to do a rig survey, including a bid for repairs. Get your painter/glass guy to survey the hull and decks, including a bid for repairs. Get your sailmaker to inspect the sails, and so on and so forth. All of these people will do bids for free (generally speaking), and have every incentive to find every little teeny flaw, as it means work for them. They also have incentive to give an accurate bid, as they are the ones who will have to deliver on that number. I would never ever hire a surveyor until after having all the pros who will be caring for the boat look at it. The surveyor exists strictly to consecrate the deal for the insurance company. His only real concern is keeping insurance companies and brokers (his return clientele) happy. The other guys will actually have to deal with boat and owner long term. You will probably never see the surveyor again after his survey, and he knows this. The other guys will do an excellent job for free, to get the work. The surveyor will stick you good for nothing. Remember, most surveyors were once in the industry but retired. Because they don't want to do actual work.
Minaret.... EXCELLENT ADVICE!!!

With regard to surveying... I wouldn't dream of not doing it myself... AND... Thoroughly...Like a full day or more... If you don't have a thousand pictures and 5 pages of notes... you didn't do your job... After I'm convinced of the relative condition, and still going forward with the deal.... I HIRE a SURVEYOR... Tell him to skip all the crap ... i.e. checking the fridge/stove/taps/electronics/lighting etc..... If you can't check all of this and more, you have no business owning a boat... Use him to look for major flaws you might have missed, and tell him you want this to cover your insurance survey as well... Insurance companies won't take yours or captain Ron's self survey ....

If you are not capable of doing your own survey, they are PLENTY of salty folk at the docks who would jump at a couple hundred dollars and a case of beer for spending the day looking at your prospective purchase...
.
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:39   #38
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

exactly what boaty sed....

if you want a GOOD surveyor, go out with everyone you know who knows anything about boats and crawl thru bilges.

wood boats are fascinating---their joinery and what makes em be what they are and how they are built...and what makes em sink and rot...very very interesting.
what, says you, does wood boat knowledge have to do with fg boat knowledge....rodlmao--

you would know if you knew boats.

learn all you can before you try to buy.

find an old salt to teach you as much as possible and show you what the problem looks and smells like, as well a show to fix it.

asa 101 - 104, etc are all well and good but do they teach you how to troubleshoot your new lifestyle...

dont have to be an engineer with a degree. just have to be aware of your surroundings and what makes them work.
and how to repair when there is a problem as well as what that problem is and how it presents to you.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:43   #39
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Oh, I couldn't agree more. Problem is, the insurance mob over here in the US is very good at strong arming boaters. If you don't have insurance, you can't get a slip. My marina, and many others, has a million dollar liability minimum. Most insurance companies want a survey every two years, some every five. Hence the surveyors have you over a barrel. And they know it.

DING.... DING... DING!!!

I neglected to make this point in my previous post.... Every single marina I have berthed in REQUIRED liability insurance... And you can't get it without a SAMS/NAMS surveyor to green light it....
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:50   #40
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,222
Images: 2
pirate Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
DING.... DING... DING!!!

I neglected to make this point in my previous post.... Every single marina I have berthed in REQUIRED liability insurance... And you can't get it without a SAMS/NAMS surveyor to green light it....
Ahh well... you choose to live with oppression... this side we are more realistic... owners crash into other boats... without them boats are extremely well behaved.. so don't need surveys for just liability...
Don't complain coz your in the ****... you let it happen..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 08:56   #41
Registered User
 
Crimea Cruiser's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Crimea
Boat: Colin Archer 36', steel
Posts: 358
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]
Rule No 1
Never buy more than you can afford to lose...

It don't make you more 'Endowed' if you finance... Honest..
More true wisdom from the Boatman!
__________________
If it floats it's a boat, or perhaps it's f#cal matter!
Crimea Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 09:04   #42
Registered User
 
S/V Illusion's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FLORIDA
Boat: Alden 50, Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 1,693
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknav View Post
Hi Illusion! If you write negative comments about a surveyor or a contractor, it can impact his/her livelihood. Rightfully or wrongfully about what you've written from your experience, you could be sued for libel and for defamation of character, among other can of worms. Word of mouth about a surveyor is NOT good enough for me. Did the surveyor apply himself/herself in studying and practicing "marine surveying"?; working knowledge of propulsion/engine, electricity/electronics, structural design/fabrication, involvement in boat buildings/servicing/repairs and for how long? (The surveyors that you see on the road, are all licensed. They have taken surveying classes (Civil Engineering program), attended lengthy internship and passed stringent state exams prior to earning their license.) If a surveyor cannot show proof of his background/education, no amount of word of mouth will cut it. Every profession has tons of charlatans praying on the gullible; now you know better.

Mauritz
If that were true, there would be no reviews on amazon, consumer reports, eham.com, Angie's list, etc...

No liability accrues from writing reviews based on factual observation, experience or knowledge.

Simply complaining here serves no purpose especially in a short-lived thread destined for obscurity.

Surveys can serve as essential tools, particularly for the average boater, who only thinks he knows everything when put in the proper context. That we have all these Internet-experts who place no value on a good and thorough survey does a disservice to that set of people.
__________________
S/V Illusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 09:11   #43
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,222
Images: 2
pirate Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
If that were true, there would be no reviews on amazon, consumer reports, eham.com, Angie's list, etc...

No liability accrues from writing reviews based on factual observation, experience or knowledge.

Simply complaining here serves no purpose especially in a short-lived thread destined for obscurity.

Surveys can serve as essential tools, particularly for the average boater, who only thinks he knows everything when put in the proper context. That we have all these Internet-experts who place no value on a good and thorough survey does a disservice to that set of people.
You may be happy gambling your life and home on someone else's 'knowledge'...
I'm not... that's also why I never 'Crew'...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 09:13   #44
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

liability insurance does not need a survey. replacement insurance does require a survey.
liability only is merely 3rd party responsibility, no survey required. ask me how i know......
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2013, 09:17   #45
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Ahh well... you choose to live with oppression... this side we are more realistic... owners crash into other boats... without them boats are extremely well behaved.. so don't need surveys for just liability...
Don't complain coz your in the ****... you let it happen..
A more appropriate statement was never made.... We sue the crap out of each other 'cause we're entitled to do so....

Some things about the US just defy explanation....
__________________

__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
survey, surveyor

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
marine survey advice Ardi Monohull Sailboats 13 28-02-2013 18:07
For Sale: Cruising Guides and Sailing Resource Books svdreamkeeper Classifieds Archive 3 23-11-2011 12:24
Tartan or Sabre ? Here's a Couple of Examples Jbingham Monohull Sailboats 29 31-08-2011 13:50



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:46.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.