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Old 22-06-2013, 04:15   #16
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Related question:
if I buy the ex-charter boat from a charter company (phased out already), is it normal to ask a week charter on it? With the condition that if I do not buy it, I will just pay pre-agreed weekly charter rate? And if I buy it, charter week will be free?
I guess you will find all the major problems using it a week.

Also, if you make the offer for the boat "in fully operative charter-ready condition" and something does not work, will the Seller repair/replace before final settlement?
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Old 22-06-2013, 05:04   #17
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Have you considered hiring a Marine Architect, from an Engineering University, as your surveyor? When I look at electrical circuits I verify that, are these the circuits that were designed and built by the boat's manufacturer? I would check and see any modifications to the circuitry; who did them and are they incorporated in the boat's schematics as revisions/modifications. I would also check and calculate the loads on these circuits; testing the entire circuitry under a full load. It might sound an over-kill inspection, but that is what an EE would do. Hiring a Marine Architect as a surveyor is worth the cost. No one wants any boat issues when sailing in the middle of the ocean. Boats under 10 years old, incorporate many safety features worth considering when shopping around. (A nurse midwife is very capable of delivering a baby, in most instances, without any help. But ONLY a Medical Doctor can sign the birth certificate!)

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Old 22-06-2013, 05:45   #18
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Home surveyors are sort of in the same kind of racket.

Mostly, they tell you superficial or obvious things that you could have seen yourself, once you know a little something about it.
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Old 22-06-2013, 05:45   #19
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pirate Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVI View Post
Related question:
if I buy the ex-charter boat from a charter company (phased out already), is it normal to ask a week charter on it? With the condition that if I do not buy it, I will just pay pre-agreed weekly charter rate? And if I buy it, charter week will be free?
I guess you will find all the major problems using it a week.

Also, if you make the offer for the boat "in fully operative charter-ready condition" and something does not work, will the Seller repair/replace before final settlement?
Don't be daft... they need the time to swap back all the crap stuff they took off with the good bits 'borrowed' off other boats in the fleet....
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Old 22-06-2013, 06:20   #20
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

The correct term for people who design vessels is naval architect.

"As professional engineers, naval architects are responsible for the design, construction and repair of ships, boats and other seafaring vessels including:"

http://www.sname.org/Home/
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Old 22-06-2013, 06:30   #21
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

I can’t see where anyone has mentioned the value of a survey in negotiating a better price with the seller/broker.
I knew there were a lot of issues with my 1977 Down Easter, but the seller was not interested. He said the price was his bottom line.
So I engaged a surveyor, who found most of the faults and printed a 15 page report with pictures. (I actually thought this was good value for money anyway, especially if I had been a newbie to boating).
I presented this to the seller and told him I was no longer interested. Low and behold—back came an offer to renegotiate, and I bought the boat at a price I was happy with, including the faults—and for much less than the cost of the survey.
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Old 22-06-2013, 06:33   #22
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

I had a good experience with my survey. The end goal is always the DIY route, but if I'm not yet confident in my abilities to do something I am not afraid to hire it out, with the caveat that I'm around when the work is done so I can do it myself next time.

Along those lines, I'm a supporter in the idea of a pre-purchase survey for first time buyers. Before I bought my first boat, I had lived, worked and cruised on another for a couple years. I had gathered a good degree of wherewithal and, naturally, had read a number of books. I still learned a hell of a lot from my surveyor in a very short time. It wasn't necessary for the safety or well-being of the boat and crew, but it was simply worth my money in terms of hands-on, practical knowledge in being able to follow a highly-experienced professional around my boat for a day.

A caveat to this I would say is that if you're buying a boat with the intention of leaving it on the hard for a year or two to fix things up, then the DIY-minded first time buyer will probably have plenty of time to figure things out just fine on their own.
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Old 22-06-2013, 06:33   #23
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

I'm not sure what you'd want is a Naval Architect, anyway.

Their expertise is your boat DESIGN, but not necessarily that all the many systems on board are functioning properly and in concert, which is the primary concern of a surveyor.

A surveyor should be able to assess the seaworthiness and operational state of a boat. Otherwise, what is their purpose?
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Old 22-06-2013, 06:41   #24
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My surveyor came sith outstanding references -- couldn't be stronger -- and he missed major things.
Same here, though ours did find some major things. This was our first boat purchase so we didn't know what to expect nor what we should look for ourselves. At least not in enough detail. We will be much better prepared next time based on this experience and more experience with systems. Next time we will also bring an experienced friend along for an extra set of friendly eyes.
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Old 22-06-2013, 06:45   #25
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

surveys are for insuring and bank loans. is what they are made for and what they do. a true assessment of your boat should be done with a person who knows about boats and what to look for as deal breakers.
there is no one who can tell you your future boat is a good or a bad deal for you--they will only tell for bank loaning money or for insurance company for future replacement of boat should you screw it up.

buyers have taken to using surveys incorrectly to see if there is something they missed--problem is that the surveyor missed more than many folks who know boats well would miss.

so--before you buy--find a derelict sailor or sailorette to sneak thru your future bilges for rot, funny colors, odors, strangenesses, and to look at chain plates and stuff the surveyor will miss. have em take pix of everything the eyeball cannot squeeze into the space to see...packing glands, under engine for leaks, everything..tell tale signs of problems that have been covered up for years..lol....
good luck.

btw--surveyor is not your friend--surveyor is looking for things to befoul the deal for insurer or bank.
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Old 22-06-2013, 07:22   #26
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

David Old Jersey said, "But nonetheless a decent one (or even half decent!) is a comfort for those who are not confident in own ability to self survey. Plus a good one should be able to talk you through the boat - things to consider and ballpark costs."


I completely agree with you -- IN THEORY -- but the reality is that while most of us don't have your, or Zeehag's, expertise, a lot of us have found a surveyor worse than nothing because of the huge cost of what was missed. The guy who did my boat said "I don't do engines" -- although he did a superficial check (not enough; five months later I had to replace the engine, and if I'd known that, I would have walked away from the boat). Unfortunately he did NOT say "Get an engine survey." I didn't know there was such a thing.

He did a VERY superficial evaluation, and on the survey (too late then) said "This was a survey for insurance purposes only." NO! I wanted as much detail as he could possibly give me, and I told him that. He didn't send the report for a couple of months, and I think he knew I hadn't gotten my money's worth.

And he came so highly recommended -- from other surveyors. For instance, there are two in my club (a couple) -- but they don't survey club members' boats. They had just given a talk at the club on what a surveyor could find.

I really don't know an answer for this. This couple had told me what I needed to know, and so did a good friend who is a retired survey. Multiple people including someone who owns a haul out facility all recommended this same guy.

You won't find me recommending him.
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Old 22-06-2013, 07:29   #27
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

My friends and I have come to the conclusion that my surveyor was the previous owner's brother-in-law. He had to be to have omitted so many obvious problems.
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Old 22-06-2013, 07:37   #28
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Hi Flames! You really need an EE, a ME and a Structural Engineer to inspect a boat. The way to go about it...Graduate Engineering students, under the supervision of their professors could be asked to do detailed inspections. Every Engineering dept. would welcome such opportunity for their students. You'll want to work out the logistics cost and the treats with the respective professors. It has been several decades since I've been in academia, but I can still contact the right people at any Engineering University and get them involved in my projects.

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Old 22-06-2013, 07:48   #29
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Perhaps the folks who run this forum would consider an obvious benefit from it's use - that being to establish a spot in which we could all add our reviews, observations and recommendations for surveyors??

Regardless of whether we like surveyors, they are a necessary and ubiquitous fact of life if, for no other reason, insurance prerequisites.

It serves little purpose to bitch here about specific experiences especially in the absence of having these comments sorted and referenced by geographic area or type of boat..

It has always amazed me how much work goes into maintaining a web-based forum yet how little value they actually provide to the users.

Maybe this can be considered by the moderators as a useful benefit to all by establishing a specific segment of this forum devoted entirely to a "consumer report" type area for evaluating surveyors with no unintended liability concerns as the comments would all be user- created.
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Old 22-06-2013, 08:07   #30
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Re: A good surveyor does not guarantee a good survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
surveys are for insuring and bank loans. is what they are made for and what they do. a true assessment of your boat should be done with a person who knows about boats and what to look for as deal breakers.
there is no one who can tell you your future boat is a good or a bad deal for you--they will only tell for bank loaning money or for insurance company for future replacement of boat should you screw it up.

buyers have taken to using surveys incorrectly to see if there is something they missed--problem is that the surveyor missed more than many folks who know boats well would miss.

so--before you buy--find a derelict sailor or sailorette to sneak thru your future bilges for rot, funny colors, odors, strangenesses, and to look at chain plates and stuff the surveyor will miss. have em take pix of everything the eyeball cannot squeeze into the space to see...packing glands, under engine for leaks, everything..tell tale signs of problems that have been covered up for years..lol....
good luck.

btw--surveyor is not your friend--surveyor is looking for things to befoul the deal for insurer or bank.

Great post, and likely very accurate.

Same with home inspections, by the way.

The parallels between boats and houses are amazing. The difference being things happen on boats faster, and in different locals.
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