Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-08-2013, 06:27   #31
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Hi Neo, thanks for sharing. Yes there should be someone assigned to look out duty, usually it is whom ever is at the helm, in this case it would have helped to have another assigned look out to keep an eye on things. Alls well that ends well. On another note, why were you reefed?
__________________

__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 07:33   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hudson Valley N.Y.
Boat: contessa 32
Posts: 826
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
incorrect, he did not maintain a proper watch and did not maaintain course and speed. its obvious by the other vessels wake, track and trim that he lowered his course to pass astern of the stand on vessel. Luckily the other vessel was watching and had time to prepare for neo's last second erratic course change.
Whoa ! are we watching the same video? Or is it that every thing is reversed in the southern hemisphere?

You ,of course are entitled to you own opinion, just not your own facts.
I don't see any of these erratic course changes or the lack of a lookout( Karen).
__________________

__________________
mrohr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 07:40   #33
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,203
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrohr View Post
Whoa ! are we watching the same video? Or is it that every thing is reversed in the southern hemisphere?

You ,of course are entitled to you own opinion, just not your own facts.
I don't see any of these erratic course changes or the lack of a lookout( Karen).
So... we have opinions... and you have facts...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 08:24   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Boat: Charter
Posts: 171
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Actually that was a Port to Port situation...
Several folks criticized Boatman's statement, but those who did might want to review their sailing terms and the COLREGS. This is not a statement about which tack the boats are on, it is a statement about which side of the boat they will pass on.

I think it is hard to judge from the video, but it appears the boats are about to pass port-to-port (that is, the each boat will pass on the port side of the other boat). Had both boats followed the COLREGS, they would have passed port-to-port. (OP stand-on by maintaining course and speed, oncoming boat give-way by falling off). As Boatman correctly stated, a port-to-port situation.

When the OP changed course, the boats actually passed starboard-to-starboard.

And it is my opinion that the boats did not collide, but the video ends early so I do not know if that is a fact.
__________________
sec906 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 08:46   #35
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

As far as proper lookout is concerned, Neo is the one who stated that there was no assigned look out, not me.
__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 08:49   #36
Registered User
 
OldFrog75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Boat: Club Sailor; various
Posts: 922
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by sec906 View Post
Several folks criticized Boatman's statement, but those who did might want to review their sailing terms and the COLREGS. This is not a statement about which tack the boats are on, it is a statement about which side of the boat they will pass on.

I think it is hard to judge from the video, but it appears the boats are about to pass port-to-port (that is, the each boat will pass on the port side of the other boat). Had both boats followed the COLREGS, they would have passed port-to-port. (OP stand-on by maintaining course and speed, oncoming boat give-way by falling off). As Boatman correctly stated, a port-to-port situation.

When the OP changed course, the boats actually passed starboard-to-starboard.

And it is my opinion that the boats did not collide, but the video ends early so I do not know if that is a fact.

I think the confusion might have been because people weren't clear whether boatman was saying that based upon the rules the boats would have passed port to port had they followed the port/starboard rule, or that the prevailing rule to be followed was port to port, which is generally a power boat rule rather than a sailboat rule.
__________________
OldFrog75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 09:15   #37
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,203
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
I think the confusion might have been because people weren't clear whether boatman was saying that based upon the rules the boats would have passed port to port had they followed the port/starboard rule, or that the prevailing rule to be followed was port to port, which is generally a power boat rule rather than a sailboat rule.
In a head to head situation Port to Port is advised as this is supposed to give both skippers a set standard to go by... else you'll have folk zig-zagging all over trying to compensate for the others move...
In this particular case even more so as Neo was the windward boat and appears hard on the wind so was limited in choices... the other boat to his lee on the course shown in the video had easier options.
As for having a lookout... the man steering is supposed to be the lookout... the lady up front who finally spotted the boat was not... however... when the skipper is hopping around with a camera and the helmsman is distracted its little wonder that when the situation was finally spotted there was no reasoned decision just a hard a port... potentially crossing the bow of the oncoming vessel...
In general... poor command by the skipper and poor seamanship by the helmsman... most of us.. and me have been guilty of poor concentration at one time or another.. a lesson learned.
If the lady had not looked up and said something... we'll never know
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 09:19   #38
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,203
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Before anyone asks what I would have done...
Held course and blasted my horn to alert the other boat that he needed to fall off..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 09:24   #39
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

I see no issue, you moved slightly he passed safety ahead, whats the issue. you were both sailing, you just keep out of each others way, I mean its not like you were in a confined space.

dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 09:43   #40
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

well on my side of the world, the COLREGS state that all vessels must keep a proper watch, also,

A stand-on vessel:

-
shall:
-
maintain her:
-
course and
-
speed
-
take best action to avoid collision - as soon as it is clear that the action of the give-way vessel alone will not prevent collision

-
may take action to avoid collision - as soon as it is clear that the give-way vessel is not doing as she should, but if:
-
a power-driven vessel “crossing” and
-
circumstances allow
shall not alter to port for a vessel on her port side

Note the OP,

didn't keep a proper watch (fact based on his own statement)
didn't see the other vessel (fact based on his own statement)
altered course to port as soon as he saw the other vessel, (fact based on his own statement and video)

So all in all, he did everything wrong. I'm not trying to bash the OP, he made it clear he knew he was in the wrong and will take measures to make sure it doesn't happen again so all is good.

As far as the other vessel, it's clear in the video he has lowered his course to pass astern of the OP, he is on a broad reach with sails trimmed for windward, its also clear from his wake he has dropped off significantly, its also clear he has a crew member under the boom relaying the OP's position to make sure he passes astern.

those are 'the facts'
__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 10:00   #41
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,672
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Goboatingnow,

The issue is that the OP, while avoiding a collision (which Colregs do require), he bears responsibility for the way the helmsman did it. And there is the question of whether he, as the stand-on boat, should not have maintained course and speed, and if necessary indicated that he was on starboard. It is not uncommon to call out "Starboard!" in the loudest bellow one can manage. The give way boat merely has to drop down a little to safely take the stand-on boat's stern: and that is what the Colregs directs him to do.

The reason it matters is predictability of actions. Not doing it is like ignoring the laws for left turns (in the US). The "give way" car is expected to yield right of way. If he doesn't, a collision may result. If everybody uses the same rules it is safer for everybody.

In this case, we probably have an inexperienced helmsman, as well as skipper. An experienced helmsperson would have jolly well peered out from behind the genoa to see if there were oncoming vessels, or asked another crewmember to keep an eye out, even go forward to watch, if necessary. The helmsman's actions in this case really could have caused a nasty collision, because he turned to where the other guy was going to be if they all followed the Colregs.

These sorts of incidents are why you read so much here on CF about begging people to memorize the Colregs and follow them.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 10:02   #42
Neo
Registered User
 
Neo's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salem, MA
Boat: Pearson 31
Posts: 535
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
Hi Neo, thanks for sharing. Yes there should be someone assigned to look out duty, usually it is whom ever is at the helm, in this case it would have helped to have another assigned look out to keep an eye on things. Alls well that ends well. On another note, why were you reefed?
I reefed because the wind was gusting into the high teens and the crew had no experience sailing, except for the helmsman who has just enough experience to be over confident but not enough to be proficient.
__________________
Neo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 10:25   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,447
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Re Boaties thoughts: A wise saying quoted by a professional skipper:

"Turn to port, see you in court"

Another observation from some years of sailing experience: when racing sailors and non-racing sailors interact, there is often a BIG difference in how crossing situations are viewed. In racing, it is common for the give way vessel to pass very close behind the stern of the stand-on vessel... a few feet is not uncommon. This causes non-racers to have a heart attack, whilst the racer views it as normal operating procedure. In racing situations, the give way vessel will often hail, saying something like "hold your course", thus assuring the stand-on skipper that no collision is imminent. Of course, when racing there is usually a very careful lookout being maintained on the part of both vessels for tactical as well as safety reasons... something the cruising sailor might well emulate!

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 10:36   #44
Neo
Registered User
 
Neo's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salem, MA
Boat: Pearson 31
Posts: 535
Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrohr View Post
Whoa ! are we watching the same video? Or is it that every thing is reversed in the southern hemisphere?

You ,of course are entitled to you own opinion, just not your own facts.
I don't see any of these erratic course changes or the lack of a lookout( Karen).
mrohr, thanks for defending your fellow northern hemisphere inhabitants, but I think the misunderstanding was in the left hemisphere and right hemisphere of my brain.

I was clearly unaware of the presence of the other boat.

I did not clearly instruct my helmsman to keep an eye out for other boats and did not assign another crew member to keep a look out behind the genoa.

Our course was somewhat erratic due to the gusting wind which would have complicated decision making for the other skipper. (We had just come off the wind a bit because of a header. This brought the other boat into view at the beginning of the video). We then headed back up before we noticed the other boat.

This may explain why it appeared that this was more of a head on situation. IMHO, it was not. We were hard on the wind and the other boat, judging by their sail trim and the angle they were approaching us, was at least as high as a close reach. We were starboard tack, the stand on boat.

In fact, if we had both maintained course they probably would have passed behind us, but within less than a boat length. In my opinion, this is unacceptable.

What I would have done if I had been paying attention: I would have bore off well in advance so the other skipper would have understood that I was giving way. I would also closely watch the reaction of the other boat to make sure they understood.

This may not be the correct procedure, in that it could cause confusion, but I have trust issues, and have seen enough knuckle heads out there to be afraid.

However, as boatman says, I probably should have maintained course and leaned on the horn.
__________________
Neo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2013, 10:46   #45
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,203
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: A Collision Waiting To Happen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
mrohr, thanks for defending your fellow northern hemisphere inhabitants, but I think the misunderstanding was in the left hemisphere and right hemisphere of my brain.

I was clearly unaware of the presence of the other boat.

I did not clearly instruct my helmsman to keep an eye out for other boats and did not assign another crew member to keep a look out behind the genoa.

Our course was somewhat erratic due to the gusting wind which would have complicated decision making for the other skipper. (We had just come off the wind a bit because of a header. This brought the other boat into view at the beginning of the video). We then headed back up before we noticed the other boat.

This may explain why it appeared that this was more of a head on situation. IMHO, it was not. We were hard on the wind and the other boat, judging by their sail trim and the angle they were approaching us, was at least as high as a close reach. We were starboard tack, the stand on boat.

In fact, if we had both maintained course they probably would have passed behind us, but within less than a boat length. In my opinion, this is unacceptable.

What I would have done if I had been paying attention: I would have bore off well in advance so the other skipper would have understood that I was giving way. I would also closely watch the reaction of the other boat to make sure they understood.

This may not be the correct procedure, in that it could cause confusion, but I have trust issues, and have seen enough knuckle heads out there to be afraid.

However, as boatman says, I probably should have maintained course and leaned on the horn.
Respect...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
collision

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.