Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-06-2014, 17:20   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,450
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

I'm left with the question why would anyone bright enough to be able to afford such a vessel do business with a firm that had such a dismal history? It would seem that a look at all the unfinished work, and some sort of credit check would have discouraged me, and I'm not very astute with business issues.

Jim
__________________

__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 17:31   #17
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Just one word Jim.......
...."Brokers"..
__________________

__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 17:35   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,359
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
It is normal that contractually, the Owner carries a lien on the vessel as soon as the keel is registered and a large stage payment made to fund production.

What I am curious about is whether the physical suppliers of the equipment were fully paid?

Not a thing you worry about with Feadship.

Also, unless the Owner took out additional insurance at launch.... Builder's insurance is often totally inadequate.

Maybe different in the US?
Actually that is not automatic in the US. Contracts vary and many do not give the buyer such rights. As to the physical suppliers, my guess is yes. The reason is that I think most suppliers already had them on COD (Collect on Delivery). As to the insurance, no idea who has what. Further complicated on whether it's at cost or sale value. And in this case it is suspected that the cost actually may have exceeded the selling price. I saw in legal proceedings the price they gave on another boat and it was shockingly low, showing their desperation for business.
__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 17:56   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,359
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I'm left with the question why would anyone bright enough to be able to afford such a vessel do business with a firm that had such a dismal history? It would seem that a look at all the unfinished work, and some sort of credit check would have discouraged me, and I'm not very astute with business issues.

Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Just one word Jim.......
...."Brokers"..
In this case there may be a lot of truth in that. Fraser was knee deep in this mess. They may try to say they were just brokers but reading their website they promise much more in new builds.

Now, the other problem is that sometimes wise businessmen let emotions take over on such purchases. Plus there was a captain involved he apparently trusted too.

The problem is that Northern has built some good boats. But it becomes complicated to even know who you're dealing with. Obviously New World and Andy didn't disclose they didn't have assets. And at the time this order was placed the relationships between the various entities were different than today.

I treated ordering a build just like a business decision. The first boat we liked at a distance we quickly found out more about the builder and rejected. All we had to read was the lawsuit (available online) of another purchaser of the same model. There was another builder we found out enough just reading a book that was published a couple of years ago. Plus I knew of one of the owners from when I lived in NC. A third builder we realized hasn't got any new yacht business. They appeared to build a good boat except when they took on the challenge of building one to far different standards than they'd ever built. It ended up in court too. This was all information available online, didn't even require any in depth research. Now when you look deeper it can be hard to even figure out who is who. One builder wrote contracts under one name which didn't legally exist and did business under several different entities, 5 or more. It took the buyer suing them well over a year of legal wrangling before the courts could determine what parties they could sue.

Northern/New World was bidding in many cases against Nordhavn. They would underbid them by significant amounts. Not only has Nordhavn been reputable, their owners wrote one of the most transparent, honest articles I've ever read of how they handled the challenge of the economic collapse starting in 2008.

The other big mistake people make is not visiting the yard. Walk through and see boats not complete but only two workers working on them. Or the locked shed, what is in there? Or you see three boats in build but all seem to be stopped at the same stage. Or boats sitting apparently waiting for engines. The builder talks about a hundred employees and you count every person you see and only count to 25 or 30. Plus by not going to the yard you show them you're not going to be keeping a very close watch. We actually hired a local surveyor for the entire process in addition to our representative who traveled there periodically.

And, last, bankruptcy. There once was a stigma. Now companies go bankrupt and soon open back up, the assets purchased, but often the same people or some of the same involved. There are people in today's world who make their money through bankruptcies it seems. Look at Donald Trump. It's one thing to let someone escape a huge mistake or circumstance and start their life over financially. But the process is abused.
__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 18:28   #20
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Agree again BandB

Plus sometimes the psychology of first time buyers of custom Newbuilds can make them particularly vulnerable.

They are often hardworking driven HNWI who see their first dream yacht as not only a sophisticated statement of their achievements, but an attempt to reconnect with their inner child as a family value investment.

In many I see their sharp business instincts take a back seat to the ' dream ' and the flattering stroking of Brokers.
Weak yards are presented as an opportunity to achieve better value and control with broker/captain murmurs that their particularly insightful design concept could spawn a whole series of copycats.

Luckily I always worked for Owners who did not look at the process through dreamy rose colored glasses.
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 19:05   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,359
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Agree again BandB

Plus sometimes the psychology of first time buyers of custom Newbuilds can make them particularly vulnerable.

They are often hardworking driven HNWI who see their first dream yacht as not only a sophisticated statement of their achievements, but an attempt to reconnect with their inner child as a family value investment.

In many I see their sharp business instincts take a back seat to the ' dream ' and the flattering stroking of Brokers.
Weak yards are presented as an opportunity to achieve better value and control with broker/captain murmurs that their particularly insightful design concept could spawn a whole series of copycats.

Luckily I always worked for Owners who did not look at the process through dreamy rose colored glasses.
They look often to price so they can feel they got a great deal, better than others could have.

Then also they start wanting modifications, new designs, based on their whims but not based on knowledge or experience. For some reason they think they have better ideas than all the great boat builders. Then the best builders say no to their ideas and they end up elsewhere.

Look at the Northern build. Read what the Captain said about their design being so unique. Was going to be lighter than any other Northern's in that size, other innovations. I look around at all the boats that have been built and just can't imagine there isn't something close to what I want. I want a hull that has proven itself. I may want a unique interior, maybe change something else here or there, but not reinvent anything.
__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 19:20   #22
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

That is the nature of these "captain's of industry" to have the courage to push into new territories.

Problem happens when all those around him only care about signing the contract rather than risk loosing it due to spoiling the dream concept.

I always advise clients to spend serious money on research and feasibility before going out to tender.
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 19:34   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,359
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
That is the nature of these "captain's of industry" to have the courage to push into new territories.

Problem happens when all those around him only care about signing the contract rather than risk loosing it due to spoiling the dream concept.

I always advise clients to spend serious money on research and feasibility before going out to tender.
Actually sometimes I think it's pent up desire to push into new territories as in industry you primarily make rather small changes and innovations. There are industries that are an exception. I once knew the top sock designer for the largest sock manufacturer. Now, you can only do so much with socks and still sell them. He and his wife lived in a condo and he completely remodeled it every two years, changing the entire color schemes and mood. He pulled up nearly new floor covering, repainted perfect walls, and purchased art and decorative items. Sometimes even traded furniture out.
__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2014, 08:50   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Baltic Sea / Kiel Canal
Posts: 286
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
It will make a very nice hot dog stand
....like this??


The American luxury yacht "polar bear" (MMSI-No.: 366862590) came during welding work on the grounds of Marine Group boat works in Chula Vista, San Diego, to the 19.6 about nine o'clock on fire. Metre-high flames shot from the constructions, dense smoke rose, and the shipyard was evacuated as a precaution. Two workers suffered slight smoke poisoning.Because of the intensity of the fire, which had been formed in a lower deck, the Fire Department had to deal with it from a safe distance. In addition, danger of explosion ruled by fuel on board. By turntable ladders, fire-fighting water and foam on the ship were sprayed, whose windows had shot the police with guns, so that it reached also the flames. Also a pollutant-fighting team was called. At night, the fires on the boat still festered.
The 110-foot-long 25-million dollar yacht was regarded as a total loss.
__________________
Tellus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2014, 10:21   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,359
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellus View Post
....like this??


The American luxury yacht "polar bear" (MMSI-No.: 366862590) came during welding work on the grounds of Marine Group boat works in Chula Vista, San Diego, to the 19.6 about nine o'clock on fire. Metre-high flames shot from the constructions, dense smoke rose, and the shipyard was evacuated as a precaution. Two workers suffered slight smoke poisoning.Because of the intensity of the fire, which had been formed in a lower deck, the Fire Department had to deal with it from a safe distance. In addition, danger of explosion ruled by fuel on board. By turntable ladders, fire-fighting water and foam on the ship were sprayed, whose windows had shot the police with guns, so that it reached also the flames. Also a pollutant-fighting team was called. At night, the fires on the boat still festered.
The 110-foot-long 25-million dollar yacht was regarded as a total loss.
Well, the Northern would need someone to actually work on it to exactly duplicate that one. But I sure bet there are some involved who wouldn't mind at all if someone snuck to it and threw a match on it. (Ok more than a match).

"whose windows had shot the police with guns"

What? Ok, the wording got a bit messed up but it did create an interesting picture in our minds. My wife and her gf are on a giggling spree now as a result of that.
__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2014, 10:32   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

My mom's house is in Chula Vista, not far from the water.

I wonder where that news article came from, from the weird sentence construction it definitely sounds like it was translated from another language.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2014, 10:34   #27
Registered User
 
Krogensailor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Naples Fl
Boat: Kadey Krogen 38 cutter
Posts: 355
Images: 13
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

This sounds like a pitch for the trickle down theory of economics. Invented I might add at the Wharton School, University of Penn. Not too many years after said invention,(concoction), hey changed their tune and withdrew the idea, they said the problem with it was that it didn't realy take into account the multiple streams of income that the rich enjoy. We never heard the later conclusion and have been eating our hats sinse waiting for the rewards to trickle down. Don't hold your breath. This guy is plainly a lobbist for the rich. If one adds the cash steam of all of these types boats on the entire west coast and compare it to the cash stream of all ofd the smaller recreational boats, not including the commercial boats, the mega yachts don't show up on the radar. Lets say there's two hundred boats in a marina and one mega yacht with a crew of ten. The small boats, each has a guest aboard, will be numbered at 300. This perhaps on the weekend, we have jobs. But still the mega deal has a relatively insignificant impact. In a town of 100,000 18 of the rich each buy a Lamborghini and a rolls, the balance buy Chevy's. Whats the impact. Project this effect over time and the mega impact disappears. Fuel you say? Most all of these guys have tankers that meet at commercial yards, marina gets zip there. Next thought. Who designed this nightmare? Looks like 40 +' of superstructure and what, 8', 10' draft? That boat was designed to float on its side! These boats represent the uglification of the American waterways. They are the walmart of the marina industry, get ten of these in your location , and over time watch your endeavor die. Putting all you eggs in one basket is allways a foolish move. "Oh, look Buffy, the Smyths are going to the coast." and off they go. We have worked for many of these folks here in sunny Naples Fl. When the tide changes, they will leave your ass high and dry.
__________________
Krogensailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2014, 10:57   #28
Registered User

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Elsewhere on the Water
Posts: 571
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
I wonder where that news article came from, from the weird sentence construction it definitely sounds like it was translated from another language.
Location: Baltic Sea / Kiel per the originator's post.
__________________
St. Elsewhere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-06-2014, 16:30   #29
Registered User
 
Cormorant's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Catskill Mountains when not cruising
Boat: 31' homebuilt Michalak-designed Cormorant "Sea Fever"
Posts: 2,073
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Here's footage of the Polar Bear fire shot from a quadcopter:

Drone Captures Massive Yacht Fire As $24 Million Boat Is Engulfed In Flames (VIDEO)
__________________
Cormorant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-06-2014, 07:04   #30
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 994
Re: 90' Long Range Motor Yacht sinking follow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krogensailor View Post
This sounds like a pitch for the trickle down theory of economics. Invented I might add at the Wharton School, University of Penn. Not too many years after said invention,(concoction), hey changed their tune and withdrew the idea, they said the problem with it was that it didn't realy take into account the multiple streams of income that the rich enjoy. We never heard the later conclusion and have been eating our hats sinse waiting for the rewards to trickle down. Don't hold your breath. This guy is plainly a lobbist for the rich. If one adds the cash steam of all of these types boats on the entire west coast and compare it to the cash stream of all ofd the smaller recreational boats, not including the commercial boats, the mega yachts don't show up on the radar. Lets say there's two hundred boats in a marina and one mega yacht with a crew of ten. The small boats, each has a guest aboard, will be numbered at 300. This perhaps on the weekend, we have jobs. But still the mega deal has a relatively insignificant impact. In a town of 100,000 18 of the rich each buy a Lamborghini and a rolls, the balance buy Chevy's. Whats the impact. Project this effect over time and the mega impact disappears. Fuel you say? Most all of these guys have tankers that meet at commercial yards, marina gets zip there. Next thought. Who designed this nightmare? Looks like 40 +' of superstructure and what, 8', 10' draft? That boat was designed to float on its side! These boats represent the uglification of the American waterways. They are the walmart of the marina industry, get ten of these in your location , and over time watch your endeavor die. Putting all you eggs in one basket is allways a foolish move. "Oh, look Buffy, the Smyths are going to the coast." and off they go. We have worked for many of these folks here in sunny Naples Fl. When the tide changes, they will leave your ass high and dry.
It sounds to me like you had to twist the facts quite a bit to make your argument align with your political views.

He didn't say that ONLY the megayachts are important, just that all cruising yachts have an economic impact wherever they travel to. As he said, they all buy groceries and pay cab drivers and eat at restaurants, etc. Of course if you line up one megayacht against 300 smaller boats, it will have less impact than all of them combined, but that's nothing like what the video claimed. Without yachts of ALL sizes, those who build them and service them and provide for the needs of their crews would have to find jobs in some other industry. That's basically what "trickle down" economics is and it obviously works. If all the boat owners, from recreational 15' runabouts to medium size cruising boats to megayachts, didn't make the money at their jobs or from their investments, then they clearly wouldn't be spending it on building and maintaining and provisioning their boats, thus providing stimulus to the local economy wherever their boats may go.

If you've managed to own and cruise a boat of any size without quite a lot of YOUR hard earned money somehow "trickling" out of your bank account and into the hands of local boating suppliers and workers, I'm sure you'd earn the undying gratitude of everyone on this forum if you'd tell us exactly how it's done.
__________________

__________________
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
motor, yacht

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Perfect Long-Range Cruising Yacht ? Garry H Monohull Sailboats 106 07-03-2014 07:49
Motor or No Motor for Long-Term Cruising? boatyard Pirate Construction, Maintenance & Refit 41 02-08-2009 22:13
Sinking my motor boat dockside andrejsv The Sailor's Confessional 9 10-11-2008 07:22
Report into Sinking of UK Yacht swagman General Sailing Forum 15 13-04-2007 16:17



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:42.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.