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Old 29-10-2013, 13:51   #106
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Comparing a mono with a 16 foot beam and a cat with a 20 foot beam seems not to meet the criteria of vessels with similar capacity...

Further, consider the effect of a mono striking something at a point offset by one third of the beam... this will be a glancing blow with the chance of simply shoving the bow sideways. With a cat, a similar strike at one third of the beam is still a bows on impact on one hull, and this seems a more serious event to me.

But who cares? It is a silly argument over a very unlikely occurrence.

Jim
So why do you keep adding to it?
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Old 29-10-2013, 15:06   #107
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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So why do you keep adding to it?
Because I'm bored... and why not? It is the internet, after all.
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Old 29-10-2013, 15:51   #108
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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First off all boats can sink even catamarans. So taking that argument completely out of the mix that leaves you with capsizing. (in this example anyways).

I've been knocked down in a 30ft catalina (water pouring into the cockpit) she weather helmed and came right back up. If I had done the same thing in a catamaran I would have been screwed. ( now I know it is harder to do on a catamaran but it is still possible) and before you get all hurt I love catamarans. I've chartered a couple and enjoyed them very much.

However if I were to be crossing an ocean I would feel much more comfortable in a mono knowing that if things get bad I can button up the hatches and if we get rolled the "lead" will eventually get the big metal pole pointing upwards again and I can continue on.
From a more practical perspective however if I consider the same scenario on my cruising tri.. I would be enjoying a rather nice day sailing.

Let's just real quick look at the extremes. My tri is 22,000 lbs across 3 hulls, my maximum degree of heel that I have ever been able to manage is probably somewhere around 10 degrees and that was in 35 knott winds doing about 9 knotts. I am far, far away from a random gust upsetting anything enough to start a knock down.

Further look at the loading numbers on the rig. At about 900 SQFT of sail (assuming the sails are fully deployed) a 50 knott gust will exhibit about 10,000lbs of force on the sail and the boat assuming it is perfectly positioned on the beam; that is less than half the weight required to actually pick the main hull out of the water and flip the boat over. You would need more than 22,000lbs of force to knock the boat over with wind alone. And let's be honest, even in the 50 knott gut more than likely if I still have my full sails up my mast will be departing the deck leaving my chance of getting knocked down at about 0.

Comparing a racing tri to a cruising tri is a major fallacy. That racing tri that got knocked over probably had immensely more sail area as well as a weight in the range of 10,000lbs or less and they were probably already healed over maybe 15-25 degrees with the outer hull completely airborne which would also give another area for wind off the beam to apply pressure and assist the turning process which are two more conditions which would simply never be possible in a cruising tri.

To the best of my knowledge about the only thing that is going to flip my tri would be a breaking wave over 20+ Ft in height and/or incredibly bad judgement in high winds and swells in the range of 30-50 feet. Then again, the Casanova's sailed my exact same boat through worse than that and survived unscathed. So once again I think it proves that keeping a boat upright is probably more about the skipper than it is the boat.
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Old 29-10-2013, 20:00   #109
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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Because I'm bored... and why not? It is the internet, after all.
Best. Reply. Ever.
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Old 30-10-2013, 07:34   #110
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

Hi, everybody,

I've been away for a while, and just arrived back at CF.

Not all cats are created equal; nor are all monohulls. And if you're going to have either built, ought not you to answer your own preferences, assuming competent architects for each type of boat?

I'm not understanding where all the vituperation is coming from here; have we no space for our mates' difference of opinion, did no one read DOJ's comment relative to the Atlantic crossing?

Bye for now.

Ann
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Old 31-10-2013, 14:59   #111
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

Probably should not even answer this question BUT since I own both thought might put the question in some perspective.
I have owned a 44 ft, cat for 4 years.....have sailed the entire Caribbean down as far as Venezuela.
I also currently own a 50 ft. Ted Hood designed Ketch now for 15 years and have a lot of ocean miles in her including a few rough Gulf Stream crossings. Have been docked down in her on a few occasions.
Also have 30+ years experience as skipper and crew on various racing monohulls and have been knocked down more times than I can recall. However, no different than any other racing sailor has experienced when you push a boat hard...really no big deal, it is part of the adventure.
Now I have both boats sitting at my disposal. So which one would I get in to cross the Atlantic?
I would pick the cat hands down NOT because it is necessarily safer but for all the other reasons that have been discussed in this thread.
The very idea that one boat is safer than the other is pure BS.
There are many scenarios out there as to what can go wrong.
Just better make sure you as a skipper are prepared and both will most likely get you safely across if the BIG FAT BITCH OF FATE smiles on you.
Good Luck!
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Old 31-10-2013, 15:48   #112
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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Originally Posted by caradow View Post
Probably should not even answer this question BUT since I own both thought might put the question in some perspective.
I have owned a 44 ft, cat for 4 years.....have sailed the entire Caribbean down as far as Venezuela.
I also currently own a 50 ft. Ted Hood designed Ketch now for 15 years and have a lot of ocean miles in her including a few rough Gulf Stream crossings. Have been docked down in her on a few occasions.
Also have 30+ years experience as skipper and crew on various racing monohulls and have been knocked down more times than I can recall. However, no different than any other racing sailor has experienced when you push a boat hard...really no big deal, it is part of the adventure.
Now I have both boats sitting at my disposal. So which one would I get in to cross the Atlantic?
I would pick the cat hands down NOT because it is necessarily safer but for all the other reasons that have been discussed in this thread.
The very idea that one boat is safer than the other is pure BS.
There are many scenarios out there as to what can go wrong.
Just better make sure you as a skipper are prepared and both will most likely get you safely across if the BIG FAT BITCH OF FATE smiles on you.
Good Luck!
Heh.

One of the few qualified to answer.

Thanks.

An aside............
At what sustained wind speed would you suggest deploying a parachute on that 44?
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Old 01-11-2013, 15:04   #113
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

as to when I would deploy a parachute relative to sustained wind speed is a tricky one.
I am certainly no expert and would defer to others on this forum who are far more knowledgeable than I.
BUT....if I had to commit myself would say it would be dependent on several factors.......however generally speaking "SOONER THAN LATER"
the three variables I would at least want to know would be is:
1) do I have reliable weather data......in that is this a sustained storm or is it short lived?
I would prefer to continue steering in most scenarios no mater what the velocity/sea state if the winds were to be short lived.
2) how many crew do I have aboard?
big factor on how I would handle this situation.
3) last but not least.....what is the fatigue factor?
if it is high, then any winds approaching 35+ I would get prepared by deploying a sea anchor again SOONER THAN LATER.....given the lack of crew and approaching exhaustion.

Of course I would love to hear from others, especially those that have "been there, done that" than an array of sailing pundits who have many opinions based on their own theories......sort of like myself because I have never been in that particular situation!
ciao
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Old 02-11-2013, 17:42   #114
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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Originally Posted by caradow View Post
as to when I would deploy a parachute relative to sustained wind speed is a tricky one.
I am certainly no expert and would defer to others on this forum who are far more knowledgeable than I.
BUT....if I had to commit myself would say it would be dependent on several factors.......however generally speaking "SOONER THAN LATER"
the three variables I would at least want to know would be is:
1) do I have reliable weather data......in that is this a sustained storm or is it short lived?
I would prefer to continue steering in most scenarios no mater what the velocity/sea state if the winds were to be short lived.
2) how many crew do I have aboard?
big factor on how I would handle this situation.
3) last but not least.....what is the fatigue factor?
if it is high, then any winds approaching 35+ I would get prepared by deploying a sea anchor again SOONER THAN LATER.....given the lack of crew and approaching exhaustion.

Of course I would love to hear from others, especially those that have "been there, done that" than an array of sailing pundits who have many opinions based on their own theories......sort of like myself because I have never been in that particular situation!
ciao
Thank you.

It has been asked here before but there are very few that have ever done it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 18:34   #115
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

From what I have be told, cruising cats do not get knocked down as a mono would, but the worry is that in a bad sea a cat may bury the leeward hulls bow causing the aft to rise and the free hull to overtake changing the dynamics very quickly. In bad seas the mono may keep on with more sail and better control, where the cat should be well reefed or running with a drogue to slow it down. Do I like Monos YES, but if money was not an option I would have a cat for cruising given the predictability of weather forecasts over a 5 day period. I just sailed from Port Villa, Vanuatu to Bundaberg, Australia a distance of just over 1000Kns 1n 160 hours the 44 Lagoon that left at the same time arrived 10 hrs ahead. both of us where reefed down for the whole trip.
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Old 02-11-2013, 18:51   #116
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

and the open bottle of wine on the Lagoon 44 stayed on the table.
but I will say I still love racing a monohull.....there is nothing like steering up wind with crew on the rail, a nice heel and slicing through the water........at least for a few hours.
really I don't understand why some sailors are so pig headed about their choice of boats.
in fact I have a secret to share.....I also like powerboats.
each has their niche.....no type of boat is perfect.
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