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Old 18-10-2013, 09:09   #46
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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
So, what's the reason the vast majority of vessels having crossed oceans have a single hull?
Wow,,, im thinking based on %'s more cruising multis have crossed more oceans than monos. Probably by a huge factor.
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Old 18-10-2013, 11:49   #47
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
That racing trimaran that recently capsized is a prime reason that I'd never single hand a multi across the ocean. If there is no one at the helm to react to a sudden gust of wind, it is too easy to expose the dark side of a multi. Looked like the tri was running on auto pilot handily under control with both crew on the windward ama or trampoline. When the gust hit, they couldn't dump the main sheet or head off the wind. Result was an excruciatingly slow roll up to the point of no return.

From memory, it looked like the tri heeled so it's rudder was out of the water. That precluded steering the boat out of trouble. With no steering input, the boat just sat there and slowly continued heeling till it went beyond the point it could recover. Dumping the main might have saved them but neither crew was in a position to do that. A catamaran would have kept one rudder in the water but may have been quicker to roll to a point where it couldn't recover. In any case, without someone on the helm to make split second heading and sail condition changes, they are too prone to prone to floating upside down.

As I've said before, it's little consolation that the boat will float upside down if you drown because you get tangled in rigging or knocked unconscious as the boat goes over. That happened to an acquaintance on a tri. Found the boat turned turtle with the crew drowned and him missing.

Wow, that is an expert answer based on a HUGE lack of knowledge. Everyone's an expert on CF even if they know nothing of which they expound.

The MOD70 trimaran that flipped is a full-out racing boat - one of the fastest in the world and only a very, very small step below the recent AC72. It is a 70' boat that weighs 6.5 tons and reaches speeds of 45kts using foils to lift 70% of the weight of the boat out of the water.

For comparison, that is almost twice as long as our multi, and almost twice as light.

There is simply no cruising boat made that comes even close to having the characteristics of a MOD70 - not Gunboat, Outremer, SIG, or any other performance cruising boat. The MOD70 makes the old racing catamaran Playstation look like a full-on cruiser.

The boat was not on autopilot - the two people shown on deck were in the windward control station - one sitting in the helm chair holding the tiller and the other standing in the mainsheet trimmer station holding the mainsheet.

So the boat was under complete manual control being sailed by the minimal number of people necessary (the others would be used on the grinders and for headsail handling).

There are three rudders on the boat - one on each appendage. The boat is designed to lift the main hull out of the water and have full control of steerage.

When getting into trouble on one of these boats, the very LAST thing you want to do is head off the wind. The only option to turn to have any chance of saving the day on one of these is up into the wind.

The holes in that trampoline are ~3", and the tramp has a transparency of ~90%. Wind getting under it and lifting it is not a problem - the boat is designed to have that tramp at a high heel angle as its normal sailing attitude. Besides, they were sailing downwind at the time.

The boat went over because they were flying their solent with full main in too strong of winds. Probably because they were doing a public relations film. It looks like the helmsman headed up for a while and then beared off. When bearing off on these boats, the boat speed increases very quickly and it looks like they lost control of the sail trim or didn't react fast enough.

But to even bring a MOD70 into a discussion of cruising boats, and then to use it as an example of a reason never to take a cruising multi across an ocean, let alone single handed, is preposterous.

For the record, this boat is designed and outfitted for ocean racing - below there are two (carbon fiber) pipe berths, a bucket for a head, a bucket for a sink, a nice but small carbon fiber chart table with gimbaled carbon fiber chair and a one-burner stove - the same type of accommodations all of us cruising multis have.

Mark
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Old 18-10-2013, 11:55   #48
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
So, what's the reason the vast majority of vessels having crossed oceans have a single hull?
I don't see what cargo carrying capacity and low production costs mean to safety.

More wooden square rigged sailing boats have gone around the world and spent more time at sea than any other - does that mean anything?

More Searays have crossed SF Bay than your boat type - does that mean anything?

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Old 18-10-2013, 12:00   #49
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

I choose the one with a qualified person at the helm......
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Old 18-10-2013, 12:41   #50
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

It does seem like whatever someone has they think is best. I guess that's human nature. Having had mono's to 47 ft, and the 42 ft cat. I feel it's about boat management. But in heavy winds and seas (not talking severe conditions... who knows for that....) my feeling is the mono is more forgiving, the cat would be easier to make a critical mistake with.
I had my cat in winds to 40 knots apparant... got caught with the full main up.... short period of time... it felt fine, very little heel etc. But that is the problem, you dont get much warning.... who knows... sudden gusts, large wave at the right moment...... the next minute you might be upside down.
So my vote is the mono is more forgiving.... not saying it's necessarily better....
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Old 18-10-2013, 15:43   #51
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
..)

...

So my vote is the mono is more forgiving.... not saying it's necessarily better....
To me, this is the crux of the matter: not considering survival conditions (which few of us ever experience), there have been a few cats that have capsized in moderately bad wx when hit by gusts that were well above the average wind speed. The Atlantic 57 (?) that capsized last year or so, much discussed here on CF, was such a case. Those sorts of relatively common conditions could perhaps get a mono's rail well down, mess up the cabin stowage, but do no real harm. Goodness knows, we've had that happen a few times! So, for a typical short handed cruising crew, that forgiveness is a good thing IMO, and might even be construed as safety!

Recitation of questionable statistics re ocean passages of cats vs monos is specious and has little relevance to the question posed by the OP. There have been plenty of good and bad passages accomplished by both genres, and as I said in an earlier post, the question is unanswerable.

Cheers,

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Old 18-10-2013, 19:05   #52
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I maybe wrong here, but probably not. The people standing behind the multis are probably ex monohull sailors that have made the transition to multis knowing their benefits. The ones standing behind the monos are for the most part monohull sailors that have no experience with multis. I'm sure there are some exceptions here but probably not many.
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Old 18-10-2013, 19:48   #53
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

Why why why go through this again and again. Its not the type of boat that counts so much as the condition preparation and crew along with the weather and a dose of luck that makes for good ocean passages.
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Old 18-10-2013, 22:13   #54
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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
It does seem like whatever someone has they think is best. I guess that's human nature. Having had mono's to 47 ft, and the 42 ft cat. I feel it's about boat management. But in heavy winds and seas (not talking severe conditions... who knows for that....) my feeling is the mono is more forgiving, the cat would be easier to make a critical mistake with.
I had my cat in winds to 40 knots apparant... got caught with the full main up.... short period of time... it felt fine, very little heel etc. But that is the problem, you dont get much warning.... who knows... sudden gusts, large wave at the right moment...... the next minute you might be upside down.
So my vote is the mono is more forgiving.... not saying it's necessarily better....
Of course we need to base on the same sailor.
I like your last point.
Very good point.
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Old 18-10-2013, 22:28   #55
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

A 50ft trimaran is better than both.
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Old 18-10-2013, 23:19   #56
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A 50ft trimaran is better than both.
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Old 19-10-2013, 01:27   #57
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
It does seem like whatever someone has they think is best. I guess that's human nature. Having had mono's to 47 ft, and the 42 ft cat. I feel it's about boat management. But in heavy winds and seas (not talking severe conditions... who knows for that....) my feeling is the mono is more forgiving, the cat would be easier to make a critical mistake with.
I had my cat in winds to 40 knots apparant... got caught with the full main up.... short period of time... it felt fine, very little heel etc. But that is the problem, you dont get much warning.... who knows... sudden gusts, large wave at the right moment...... the next minute you might be upside down.
.
Unless you're extremely insensitive, cats do give plenty of warning that they're being pressed. There may not be 60+degrees of heel, with people falling overboard all over the place (IMO a more important safety concern than the capsize vs sinking rigmarole) but there is often 10 degrees, there is weather helm, and there is that fact that you may be doing 20+ knots... you should be getting some message from these.

And as the wind gets stronger you reef, the centre of effort gets lower, and the possibility of capsize gets smaller.

Some other safety aspects - after 4 days at sea, with winds over 30 knots, peaking at 48, we arrived at an anchorage 24-48 hours before the mono's who had left at the same time we did. That was 24-48 hours where the weather could have deteriorated further, or someone could have gotten tired and made an error, especially given they spent 24 hours per day wearing their foul weather gear but soaked to the skin, with foot deep water in the cockpit.... we wore shorts and t-shirts, never got wet.

Also, the crews of the mono's ALL had bumps and bruises, one even suggested a "compare the bruise" competition. The crews of the cats were somewhat bemused - "what bruises?" One mono skipper had a huge bruise, from his backside to his ankle, from being thrown across the cockpit and hitting the pedestal. On our boat we didn't even spill coffee.
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Old 19-10-2013, 01:34   #58
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

But where's the hardship? Where is the feeling of wearing your battle scars as a badge of honour? Where is the elation of being out of the battlefield and into the bar? Doing it that easy is not for everybody you know. But, yes, sometimes I would like the option. Sail what you like or sail what you have. But sail.

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Old 19-10-2013, 15:07   #59
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

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the one with the most cold beer
Obviously you have no idea of sailing! On a cat they only drink wine, NO beer
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Old 19-10-2013, 15:13   #60
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Re: 50ft monhull vs 44ft cat

Obviously you've never been on a cat... we have wine AND beer, plus RUM!
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