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Old 08-05-2015, 03:38   #61
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, mariof & A4.
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Old 08-05-2015, 05:06   #62
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA_sailing View Post
It appears that a drogue of some kind is deployed off the stern. I have never used one or ever been offshore (and I'm not sure of the physics) but could that maybe contribute to turning the bow into the prevailing seas?
Probably but that was not the point. The point is that we can see the boat blasting against the prevailing seas, against the waves towing a drogue...and they said that the boat had lost the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
... Could be the height of the camera above the water didn't give a realistic view of the conditions. Or maybe one or more of the crew had an injury or were debilitated with seasickness, or perhaps the boat was taking on water or had suffered some other serious failure. Like others, I'm often curious what goes into a decision to abandon when the boat seems to be OK. But knowing Polux, we'll probably find out!
I had found a lot of information regarding that accident: they say that there two of the sailors were experienced ones, that the boat had capsized once and re righted itself (they don't say what type of capsize and don't mention the boat being rolled) talk about a hurt crew member probably with a broken rig and say they had lost the engine and had difficulty making way. Regarding the engine, that does not seem to be the case looking at the movie.

– Aldri vært borti lignende - NRK – Sørlandet

Well I found another better source where the captain explains it better: The boat was one time capsized badly, rolled or close to it. The engine stopped but they had managed to re start it. Additionally the boat touched also with the mast on the water two times. All capsizes took place with the boar running dead downwind on engine.

They talk about probably 15m waves but waves look always bigger from a small sailboat. Conditions reported were 50K winds and 10m waves.

It seems to me that with 50k wind a small storm jib would have helped to control the boat and would diminish rolling and capsize possibility, specially if they were not running dead downwind.

I would like to hear comments about sailors with experience sailing on 50k winds and storm conditions. Anyway what I surely would not have done was to be on that place on the first days of may.
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Old 08-05-2015, 05:30   #63
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
...
My thoughts are that until we know more it's probably not too good to speculate....but just a couple thoughts....
"500" is probably km, not nm....500km is about 255nm....
And, while I haven't seen the helo in question, it looks to have some side pods (stub wing / pods / pylons)???? ....

John
No, they talk of about 500nm . On all the rescue missions were involved two EADS CASA C-295, a P3-C Orion an helicopter EH-101 Merlin and that the Portuguese air force had an additional help from a C-130j from the American Coast Guard that by luck was participating with the Portuguese on an exercise of search and rescue (that was cancelled).

The P3-c Orion crew was the ones that found the father and the little girl on the water and sent them a liferaft.

They say that the EH-101 Merlin mission took 12 hours and that the conditions were 50k winds and 10m waves. I don't think the helicopter was refueled on the air and if so not certainly by an American aircraft (C-130).

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Old 08-05-2015, 05:43   #64
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pirate Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Probably but that was not the point. The point is that we can see the boat blasting against the prevailing seas, against the waves towing a drogue...and they said that the boat had lost the engine.



I had found a lot of information regarding that accident: they say that there two of the sailors were experienced ones, that the boat had capsized once and re righted itself (they don't say what type of capsize and don't mention the boat being rolled) talk about a hurt crew member probably with a broken rig and say they had lost the engine and had difficulty making way. Regarding the engine, that does not seem to be the case looking at the movie.

– Aldri vært borti lignende - NRK – Sørlandet

Well I found another better source where the captain explains it better: The boat was one time capsized badly, rolled or close to it. The engine stopped but they had managed to re start it. Additionally the boat touched also with the mast on the water two times. All capsizes took place with the boar running dead downwind on engine.

They talk about probably 15m waves but waves look always bigger from a small sailboat. Conditions reported were 50K winds and 10m waves.

It seems to me that with 50k wind a small storm jib would have helped to control the boat and would diminish rolling and capsize possibility, specially if they were not running dead downwind.

I would like to hear comments about sailors with experience sailing on 50k winds and storm conditions. Anyway what I surely would not have done was to be on that place on the first days of may.
Its the luck of the draw.. sometimes you get caught as a storm goes through.. sometimes your ahead or behind it and don't really notice it as you sail through a sunny sea with long rolling swell.. or toasting a smooth crossing in 'Peter's'...
I would have done what I've done in the past.. and into the future..
I'd have hove to and ridden it out.. once you've decided on that its down to how long your nerve lasts through the slams.. and the occasional getting caught at the right point of a breaker and getting lifted and tossed.. thats freaky the 1st time.. by the 3rd or 4th time it starts to sink in the boat is taking it fine.. and everything that can fly is shut way.
I'm more than happy to shorten the time spent in a blow... some out there would have done this.. others the pro-active approach..
My interest would lie in which technique were the boats using that led to the time they felt their boats had to be abandoned..
To me the 'Trailing Warps' is akin to 'Oil on the Waters' that belongs to the time of ships/boats that did not heave to well and running downwind was the safest option.. trailing warps was to slow them enough for the storm to eventually pass methinks.. however.. something about presenting the most vulnerable parts of my 'Survival Pod' to the forces trying to destroy me is illogical..
Naah.. 1/2kt on a favourable tack with wind and current I'll happily sit and reread books drinking coffee and with minimum movement from anyone.. unless your making another coffee..


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Old 08-05-2015, 06:38   #65
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

....update:

Portuguese Coast Guard is publicly acknowleging the suport given to this operation by several merchant ships.

They confirmed that wind and seas were severe (50Kn + 33ft +).
Having experienced 50kn+ winds on land, I KNOW that I would not ne OK with it in flat seas!
They discribe the weather condition as a "Depreso Cavada". This means that the depression that hit them was very sudden and with a minimum pressure very low; under 990hPa

Our Navy reports the first rescue the 6th at 18:00pm
4 Sailors btw 40 and 60 y old
Sailboat Kolibri, Norwegian flag with broken mast and comunications down
Rescued by the EH-101 Helicopter

One hour later, 2 50y old Serbian sailors were rescued by Merchant ship Archangelos Gabriel.
Sailboat Manca 3 with USA flag, no steering capability.

At the same time 19:00h another merchant ship Cafer Dede rescued another 2 sailors: 45 and 56 y old Spanish and Italien.
Sailboat Gandul with broken rudder.

About Rves D, I didnt report yesterday because I had no confirmation that when they requested help 2am on the 7th they reported a small fire aboard, but when rescued the boat had already sunk.

Another sailboat asked for help :Swedish flag Missi 32 with 2 sailors on bord, was on the verge of capcysing, but later when contacted by the same hospital ship that rescued the father and litle girl they decided they were OK to continue the trip.

Saying I woudl do this or that behind a sreen, comparing sea conditions in diferent situations is like apples and oranges, too many variables.
Sailing trough 33ft+ waves with 18 seconds periods, 14 seconds or with 10 seconds periods its completly diferent situation. Add lots of wind on this.....

Fair winds

A4
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Old 08-05-2015, 06:52   #66
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post

My interest would lie in which technique were the boats using that led to the time they felt their boats had to be abandoned..
To me the 'Trailing Warps' is akin to 'Oil on the Waters' that belongs to the time of ships/boats that did not heave to well and running downwind was the safest option.. trailing warps was to slow them enough for the storm to eventually pass methinks.. however.. something about presenting the most vulnerable parts of my 'Survival Pod' to the forces trying to destroy me is illogical..



I do agree with you Boatman, in one like this the rope should be on the other side
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Old 08-05-2015, 07:09   #67
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

as this is a super el nino year, how would this affect weather for azores.... as we have yet to experience a super el nino, this being first time they (noaa) said super el nino.... and second el nino in sequence---
sad to hear more deaths in sail cruising.. is hard on everyone when kids die.. r i p.
be careful out there....
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Old 08-05-2015, 07:53   #68
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Thank you all for the updates and clarifications, especially A4 and Polux!!
And while I'm pretty much in the same camp as boatman, I think I might be lying to a sea anchor in 50+kts and 33' seas...(yes, I do have one and have used it...)

And, while my heart goes out to those sailors that have lost so much (especially a child!), I do need to tip my hat to those brave souls on the planes, helo, and ships, that undertake these rescues!!

God speed to them all!

John
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:23   #69
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
Once again the armchair sailors come out to criticise, I would love to see how they coped in a tough situation, Its all easier said than done.

Everyone has their breaking/quitting point and you do not know where your own point lies till you have been put to the test!

It all fair and well saying Ive seen a F8/9 or whatever a few miles from the shore, where you can run home when you get weary, but stuck in a BIG ONE, that goes on for days and days, it feels never ending, Throw in some novice crew who maybe start to panic, get near mutiny point, morale gets low, some breakages or injuries , no sleep, poor food, everything becomes a major effort.


Cold , damp, hungry, dirty, miserable, tired, seasick, nauseaous etc

Yes , after many days on that rollercoaster ride, some people just want to get off!

And I can't blame them. nor should you!
Great answer to all armchair captains discussing about bluwater boats /sea worthines / emergency procedure s /dismasting / capsizing.
Totaly agree ...

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Old 08-05-2015, 08:40   #70
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

I delivered a forty foot mono late season last year west to east. First five days were T-shirts and spinnakers, then it got cold. Then we got or first gale which lasted about two days, reefed main with blade jib broad reaching. It was fun. A couple days later we got rolled again with a couple more days of +40 knots.

The boat owner was driving too deep and we got boarded the first time which forced a chinese gybe. We had a preventer set up which held, but when he came back through the wind the mainsail smacked the spreaders so hard it exploded. It was not fun to pull that thing down.

Things lightened up a bit and the next day we were on the opposite tack going to weather when what had been the leward running backstay the day before fell to the deck and landed on my wife's head. She was okay. Pretty much instantaneous decision to forget Falmouth still 2,000 miles away and head for the Azores. I think the next day we were even becalmed when I got a heads up via sat phone from our shore support that a spontaneous low was developing to the west of us.

Thank god we broke the running back stay when we did. The low passed over us and stalled where we would have been otherwise and for the next five days the owner and I hand steered one-on-one-off broad reaching in +45-65 knot winds and waves that make the scary turquoise patches. During the first bit of +65 knots we hove to successfully with the reefed main and blade. That is until the leach cord started to tear and mainsail began ejaculating it's battens until there were none left. So much for heaving to.

After a couple hours of that things chilled out a little bit. Unfortunately, part of the leach broken cord tied itself to the remaining running backstay. My wife was crying while driving the boat to weather and I manned the halyard winch to send the owner up to the second spreader to cut the leach cord free. What a fcking nightmare.

Every sunrise I wondered, hoped the new day would bring and end but it never did. Somewhere in there I managed about seven hours repairing about twelve feet of torn seam and leach on the first mainsail but in the end we were best with just a storm jib. Very tough conditions for driving. You have to be constantly "on it" or you lose. My wife who spent most of the time confined to her bunk for her own safety said she could tell the difference when I was driving vs the owner.

The owner and I rarely went down below. We would try to sleep snuggled up to the life raft and ditch bag in the cockpit. I was trying to sleep the second time we got boarded. So much for sleeping. So much for the engine ignition switch.

The second time we saw +65 was at night. It was like a freight train. We blew up a jib sheet. I thought the owner was a goner when we was picked up off the deck by the clew flogging and was grateful when he fell to the deck and suffered only bruising. That was a long night. With day break the next day, more of the same.

We had crap visibility when I first saw Corvo and then Flores. I had been really scared about making our landfall since we did not have detailed charts for the Azores and when you zoomed in on the plotter the island were only a vague blur. By the time we got to Horta it was sunny with light winds. Those whiskeys we had on quay were the best I have ever had.

I would do it again in an instant. I knew the risks involved and had the skills required to survive. I have been sailing for more than forty years. A violent storm at sea is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. I think about it almost every day.
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:48   #71
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevensuf View Post
Once again the armchair sailors come out to criticise, I would love to see how they coped in a tough situation, Its all easier said than done.

Everyone has their breaking/quitting point and you do not know where your own point lies till you have been put to the test!

It all fair and well saying Ive seen a F8/9 or whatever a few miles from the shore, where you can run home when you get weary, but stuck in a BIG ONE, that goes on for days and days, it feels never ending, Throw in some novice crew who maybe start to panic, get near mutiny point, morale gets low, some breakages or injuries , no sleep, poor food, everything becomes a major effort.


Cold , damp, hungry, dirty, miserable, tired, seasick, nauseaous etc

Yes , after many days on that rollercoaster ride, some people just want to get off!

And I can't blame them. nor should you!
I don't blame that but will the insurance pay their boat because they "want to get off"? Are they entitled to call a major rescue operation that can put other lives at danger (not the mention the price)? Can they detour commercial traffic for their rescue? Can they call a mayday because they are "Cold , damp, hungry, dirty, miserable, tired, seasick, nauseaous ...and just want to get off"?

"Mayday is the international signal to notify life-threatening distress. A Mayday call is only to be used in the case of “grave and imminent danger to a vessel or persons, such as fire, sinking, man overboard etc."

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Old 08-05-2015, 08:57   #72
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

The names of the other Yachts have already been posted, Us: Manca 3 (MMSI 367641150), Dutch: Gandul, Swedish: Missy 32 but i cannot find the type and brand of the yachts. It is not possible to have more information with the MMSI?
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:11   #73
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

I guess I lost count. Wife says six days per her journal. Here's what a mainsail without battens or a leach cord looks like when hove to in +65 knots.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:00   #74
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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I guess I lost count. Wife says six days per her journal. Here's what a mainsail without battens or a leach cord looks like when hove to in +65 knots.
That is a lot of mainsail to carry with 65K. No more reefs?
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:01   #75
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
I guess I lost count. Wife says six days per her journal. Here's what a mainsail without battens or a leach cord looks like when hove to in +65 knots.
I'll just say the usual when a photo/video is posted:

The conditions in that photo couldn't be more than 10 knts and 1 meter waves

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