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Old 07-05-2015, 10:31   #16
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Maybe it would be a good idea to automatically have threads like this one, along with the rescue video merged with the multitude of "blue water boat" threads where the OPs insist that boats which have been built to a minimum standard are OK for world cruising?

Just a thought.
As you can see on the video I have posted previously the boat that is been rescued is one of those that will fit the bill of those that insist that only good old heavy boats are appropriated for blue water world cruising.

I cannot understand very well why they are abandoning the boat. It seems bad to me but not that bad.

Maybe we should put it on a thread explaining that it not mostly about the boat but about the crew? and that sailors should not cross oceans without being qualified to do that (qualified means to know how) and that a not qualified crew on what is called a bluewater boat is what causes most of the maydays?

Many sailors think that having an old boat that old timers call a bluewater boat is all what they need to cross oceans, that the boat would take care of them.... and that is the most dangerous thing.

I am very curious about the brands and types of those sailboats. It would be interesting information. Maybe members from the countries of those boats can have more information?
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Old 07-05-2015, 10:41   #17
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Exactly Polux. Keep in mind the mayday was sent much earlier when conditions would have been much worse, but on the face of the vid the yachts are handling the conditions well. Really heartbreaking for the loss of the little girl.
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Old 07-05-2015, 10:43   #18
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

The monohull in the video looks like a old Swan or a Baltic.


Sad for the litle girl and the rest of the crews.
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Old 07-05-2015, 10:48   #19
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

I will start with the identification of the type and brands. The one reported capsized and definitively sunk was an almost new Lagoon 400s2, one that carried a family on a circumnavigation voyage. A couple with two kids. One of the kids is the little girl, tragically deceased.

Naufrage mortel en Atlantique : le navire avait pour destination La Rochelle - SudOuest.fr

They have a blog, maybe with time we will know what happened:

http://revesdo.over-blog.com/2015/02...-equipage.html
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Old 07-05-2015, 10:57   #20
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

The one from Norway was a Swan 44.

The boat was capsized before (they don't say rolled) and re righted himself. As consequence one of the crew member had a fractured rib. This was probably the boat on the video. They were doing a circumnavigation.
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Old 07-05-2015, 11:10   #21
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Yes, this is a sad and tragic event!
My thoughts and prayers go out to all of those who've just gone through this, especially the parents/family of the lost child!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
A child died. Very sad I can't imagine the father's pain.
Looking at the video that Polux linked to, it seems the seas had laid-down quite a bit by the time of the helo rescue, and there appears to me, to be no reason for abandoning ship???
It seems that that boat could've sailed on for many more miles, without problem....or simply lie to a sea anchor 'til better weather...
But, I will not speculate further here....this is not the time/place for that...



Perhaps Atoll will start a new thread about 2015 and the Azores...
But, 'til then, many will find this thread helpful...
azores 2014 how safe is it?





Chuck, makes a great observation here....April is VERY early in the season....heck April isn't in "the season" at all!!
I crossed in late June (June 26 to July 16, 2007; S. FL to Horta, and then onto Gib..), had one wicked Full Gale from a nasty Low/front coming off N. America and some other average weather.....but no Storms.....
(had the autopilot drive bracket come loose in that Gale, at night of course, so had to hand steer 'til morning when I fixed it....but no damage, no issues at all!!)
Unless you need to be in N. Europe or N. UK in the middle of the summer, June has almost always been the preferred month for a west-to-east Atlantic sailing passage....
{having written that, my parents crossed in April / May....left S. FL April 2nd for Bermuda, then left Bermuda April 30th for Horta, arriving May 13th...all in the late 70's....and they "sailed", 'cause the lost the diesel just 150 miles out of Bermuda! And, it was cold and rough, the whole way....reefed main, lots of weather, etc....I was happily warm in S. FL. and I flew over that summer! }
Quote:
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We crossed over in 2013 and did not even think of leaving Antigua until May. We left May 1 as we watched front after front come off the east coast of the USA and just did not feel it was a good time to go. We had one window that kinda looked good the week before we left and talking with Chris Parker and looking at the models I decided to sit as if the front moved farther south than forecast it would not be good. We sat. We found out 2 other boats left on the window and both did not make it to the Azores as we got boat watches on the way across and once in Horta we found out a 3rd boat also was missing. The front did come down farther south and it got real nasty.


It just seems a bit early to cross right now but what do I know.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all of those who've just gone through this sad event!

And, I'm not sure anyone who has just been hauled up into a chopper from the N. Atlantic and/or who has just lost a child, would ever agree that there could be some good to come out of their tragedy, I think there are lessons to be learned here...

1) The N. Atlantic isn't a lake...she can be a bitch!
2) Non-trade winds sailing across the N. Atlantic (west-to-east) requires something more than "milk run" skills...like night and day, different!
3) The weather in a west-to-east crossing of the N. Atlantic must be respected....the Lows/Fronts coming off N. America are often underestimated...


Again, my prayers go out to all....
And, fair winds to everyone..

John
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Old 07-05-2015, 11:22   #22
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Polux,
This exact point was brought up last year....and in many, many discussions over the past couple decades!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Maybe we should put it on a thread explaining that it not mostly about the boat but about the crew?
have a look at Atoll's thread from last year...
azores 2014 how safe is it?



Not sure if another discussion about Blue Water Boats would benefit anyone!!
And, I certainly am not interested in that!





BTW, I had the same thoughts as Neil...
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
The monohull in the video looks like a old Swan or a Baltic.
The monohull in Polux's linked video, certainly looks like an older design....like an older IOR design Swan, Baltic, etc....












Fair winds...

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Old 07-05-2015, 11:33   #23
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

My heart is breaking for that family.

This is the second boat kid to die in as many weeks. It's a rare occurrence, and I know kids die on land all the time, too... But it still shakes my confidence to have two die so close together.

Just last night I was showing my wife pictures of a Mahe 36 and saying that I thought it would be suitable for a circumnavigation with two young kids. This morning a Lagoon 400 has capsized and a little girl is dead.

The rational side of me says that this is a very rare event and we need to understand how they capsized. The less rational side is freaking out a bit.

I am so, so sorry for that family. I can't begin to understand what they're going through.
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Old 07-05-2015, 11:52   #24
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
..
Looking at the video that Polux linked to, it seems the seas had laid-down quite a bit by the time of the helo rescue, and there appears to me, to be no reason for abandoning ship???
It seems that that boat could've sailed on for many more miles, without problem....or simply lie to a sea anchor 'til better weather...
But, I will not speculate further here....this is not the time/place for that...
...
Chuck, makes a great observation here....April is VERY early in the season....heck April isn't in "the season" at all!!
...
John
Yes This is not safe time for a crossing...except for the ones that have "bluewater" boats and think that they can take any weather. The boat on the video is definitively the Swan 44 from Norway.

I found something more. They said they had a capsize and that they lost the engine. They also had a crew member with possibly a broken rib so a mad evacuation was needed anyway at least for that one.

Regarding having lost the engine I don't think so, on the end of the movie when nobody was aboard the boat turns around and goes against the wind and sea without sails. I wonder how it can do that without an engine?

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Old 07-05-2015, 12:15   #25
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Maybe some people decide to leave early out of concern for the official start of hurricane season on June 1st? Or maybe their insurance requires them to do so, as it does for many on the US e. coast that are prevented from leaving for the Caribbean until after Nov. 1st?

Polux -- I hope you're wrong but have no way of knowing if some with so-called bluewater boats like the abandoned Swan 44 feel overconfident in their boat's ability to protect them. Hopefully more sensible people will understand that the biggest variable is the competence of the sailors onboard, and at best all the boat might do is potentially provide a bit more of a comfort & possible safety margin.

Having not endured these kinds of protracted conditions, I'm hardly one to judge why the Swan was abandoned. Could be the height of the camera above the water didn't give a realistic view of the conditions. Or maybe one or more of the crew had an injury or were debilitated with seasickness, or perhaps the boat was taking on water or had suffered some other serious failure. Like others, I'm often curious what goes into a decision to abandon when the boat seems to be OK. But knowing Polux, we'll probably find out!
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Old 07-05-2015, 12:17   #26
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Its impossible to tell the state of the sea by looking at picture/video from a helicopter vantage point. Every rescue we have seen on CF people make comments about the sea state being quite subdued. The only way you can tell is by being on the deck of a small boat. I guarantee it will be a lot more violent than it looks through a camera lens in a helicopter.
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Old 07-05-2015, 12:23   #27
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Regarding having lost the engine I don't think so, on the end of the movie when nobody was aboard the boat turns around and goes against the wind and sea without sails. I wonder how it can do that without an engine?
It appears that a drogue of some kind is deployed off the stern. I have never used one or ever been offshore (and I'm not sure of the physics) but could that maybe contribute to turning the bow into the prevailing seas?
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Old 07-05-2015, 12:48   #28
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

... a German source says
Quote:
... Guttorm Guttormsen, ein erfahrener Segler aus Arendal, hatte zunächst Kontakt mit seiner Familie hergestellt, nachdem die “Kolibri”, eine 44 Fuß lange Swan, am 6.5. um 10.45 Uhr gekentert war. Sie hatte sich danach wieder aufgerichtet und war schwimmfähig geblieben. Die Crew sei guten Mutes, gab der Skipper durch, und warte auf einen Rettungshubschrauber, um sich abbergen zu lassen.
Einige der Crew hätten leichte Verletzungen und einer eine Rippenfraktur erlitten.
Shortform: Yacht capsized but was still afloat after the capsize. Some crew members got small injuries and one a 'rib fracture' while capsizing ...

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Old 07-05-2015, 12:59   #29
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Nola the idea of the drogue is to keep the wind and seas aft by creating drag. I thought it looked like the yacht turned as well but then thought maybe it was the helo turning around that gave that impression. Slow internet here so I'm not going to re watch it right now. The sea state in the last vid looks more manageable than the sea shown in Phils original Portugal news vid
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Old 07-05-2015, 13:08   #30
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

You guys missed my point with my reference to bluewater threads. My point was "poop happens," and the weather can change at any time. The guys who insist their coastal cruisers will be fine, may and will be surprised someday when they realize the forecasts can't always be counted on.
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