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Old 08-07-2015, 15:38   #226
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Very interesting and useful thread. Does all this info relate to both monohulls and cats? And do we know more why this L400 went down?


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Old 08-07-2015, 20:30   #227
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Tobbe,
Yes, this applies to monohulls and catamarans, alike...(although, I haven't read every word of all 220+ posts, all of the comments/advice on weather, seamanship, navigation, communications, vessel and crew prep, and crew capability/experience, etc., all apply equally to all normal cruising boats, whether monohull or multihull...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobbe View Post
Very interesting and useful thread. Does all this info relate to both monohulls and cats?
You may wish to look over these specific posts...
2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

And, from last year...
azores 2014 how safe is it?






BTW....while this thread is specific to boats heading west-to-east, across the Atlantic, typically bound for/near the Azores....there are others that head west-to-east across the Atlantic in less common / more risky routes, such as NYC to the UK (via a great-circle route, etc.), such as those out there right now in the Transatlantic Race (by NYYC, etc.)....
They've gotten hammered by some Storm-force winds and full-gales....in JULY!!! (yes, once you go that far north, even in July the Atlantic can be a bitch!)

Have a look...
Gales sweep Transatlantic Race 2015 - Ocean Navigator - Web Exclusives 2015

Day 10 Race Report: Storm-Force Winds in the Mid-Atlantic




Fair winds to all...

John
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Old 08-07-2015, 23:38   #228
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Tobbe,
Yes, this applies to monohulls and catamarans, alike...(although, I haven't read every word of all 220+ posts, all of the comments/advice on weather, seamanship, navigation, communications, vessel and crew prep, and crew capability/experience, etc., all apply equally to all normal cruising boats, whether monohull or multihull...)
You may wish to look over these specific posts...
2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

And, from last year...
azores 2014 how safe is it?






BTW....while this thread is specific to boats heading west-to-east, across the Atlantic, typically bound for/near the Azores....there are others that head west-to-east across the Atlantic in less common / more risky routes, such as NYC to the UK (via a great-circle route, etc.), such as those out there right now in the Transatlantic Race (by NYYC, etc.)....
They've gotten hammered by some Storm-force winds and full-gales....in JULY!!! (yes, once you go that far north, even in July the Atlantic can be a bitch!)

Have a look...
Gales sweep Transatlantic Race 2015 - Ocean Navigator - Web Exclusives 2015

Day 10 Race Report: Storm-Force Winds in the Mid-Atlantic




Fair winds to all...

John
I want to thank you John for your sharing of your most valuable information and insight based on your years and skill as a sailor. Thank you. I seriously believe that CF for those that take the time to read and learn a wonderful source of information that you can't pick up in books. First hand reports from those who have weathered the storms on the oceans for me is invaluable. CF along with its contributors such as you I have no doubt saved lives. Thank for contributing to my education professor. And I am not being sarcastic. I mean it.

Before signing off I would like your to hear your opinion on where best to launch a drogue on a cat? And if on a cat given the capsize possibilities is having any sheets up worth it even to obtain control. Wouldn't a well deployed drogue give the control you need and then using your rudder to point the best that you can? And last question concerning a cat, would you have everyone at least topside in the living room (lounge) in vests and dry suits in a bad storm in the Atlantic? By the way when I get my cat I am seriously thinking of anti hyperthermia sleeping bag type suites that are quick and easy to jump into inside the life rafts. Just in case. Especially after reading about the child who passed because of hyperthermia. Your thoughts would be very much appreciated. And again thank you for your posts. And thanks to the University of CF.
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Old 09-07-2015, 03:54   #229
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Going Walkabout,
First off, you're very welcome!


Secondly, remember that most cruisers will spend far greater amounts of time in too light of wind (sometimes becalmed), than in gales or storm-force winds....but, the bad weather gets all the attention!!
(of course, this does not apply to those sailing high-latitudes, especially off-season, but for most cruisers it does apply...)

The main point regarding weather, that I try to emphasize in this thread (and especially in last year's), is the great effect that the continental Lows / Fronts have on those sailing the mid-latitudes west-to-east, across the Atlantic...
The earlier in the season, and the further north you sail, the greater this effect...
Just wanting to remind folks that while it can be a wonderful passage, it ain't a "milk run" (like the low-latitude, trade-wind route, east-to-west run is)

It seems that most newer cruisers are made to unnecessarily fear "the hurricane season", but are not given any real input about the nasty cold-core Lows, which you have a much higher chance of being exposed to!



Third, my experiences with multihulls is limited to playing with Hobie Cats off the beach, in my youth!
So, I have NO practical experience offshore in a catamaran to advise you with....
Sorry about that....
BUT...

But, there are others here that DO have plenty of offshore experience in cats, and some with some storm experience in them....
Hopefully, they'll chime in here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
Before signing off I would like your to hear your opinion on where best to launch a drogue on a cat? And if on a cat given the capsize possibilities is having any sheets up worth it even to obtain control. Wouldn't a well deployed drogue give the control you need and then using your rudder to point the best that you can?
Again, I cannot speak about storm tactics in multihulls....but for a monohull, a drogue is used to slow the boat and allow control, etc. when running downwind in heavy weather, not trying to sail upwind (pointing), where you'd shorten sail (and use storm sails when needed) to make way upwind in gale / storm conditions...







If you were sailing in high-latitudes, particularly out-of-season, in "storm-force" conditions, this might be appropriate.....but for most it is overkill....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
And last question concerning a cat, would you have everyone at least topside in the living room (lounge) in vests and dry suits in a bad storm in the Atlantic? By the way when I get my cat I am seriously thinking of anti hyperthermia sleeping bag type suites that are quick and easy to jump into inside the life rafts. Just in case. Especially after reading about the child who passed because of hyperthermia. Your thoughts would be very much appreciated. And again thank you for your posts. And thanks to the University of CF.
Remember, most will be in benign weather, most of the time....yes, it is always good to be prepared for bad weather, but, in my opinion, dry suits, survival suits, emersion suits, etc. are generally for those sailing offshore in cold waters in nasty conditions....and if you plan your passages well, this doesn't happen often in most "cruising"....(heck, a lot of my offshore sailing in the past 45 - 50 years has been in shorts and t-shirts....certainly much more than in foulies!! But, I'm a warm weather mid-latitude / low-latitude sailor...








Lastly, if you're interested in some info on Offshore Weather, etc. have a look at some of these videos...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY





And, some other marine communications and offshore sailing videos...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY







I hope this helps....
But, I really hope some of my fellow sailors with storm-force experience in multihulls, will give you some insight into storm tactics on a cat, 'cause I don't have any...

Fair winds..

John
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Old 09-07-2015, 05:13   #230
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Interesting,does anybody know which boat 'muckle flugga' is on ? Looks like there has been a wide range of weather ,Comanche doing 3k yesterday and 25k now. 3 boats with damage headed to Azores,the on board blogs make interesting reading.YB Tracking Race Viewer - Transatlantic Race 2015
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Old 12-11-2015, 08:24   #231
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Looks like kolibri is still out there...

Video: Yacht lost during fatal storm located - YBW
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Old 12-11-2015, 09:54   #232
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Conachair,
Thanks for the update!

It seems that the Kolibri drifted with the winds / current, around the Atlantic / around the Bermuda-Azores high, ending up 600+ miles SSE of Bermuda! (anyone heading from Bermuda to Antigua, etc., keep a lookout!!
Quote:
The Kolibri was spotted by a passing tanker ship 635 miles south-southeast of Bermuda in the North Atlantic. It was one of five yachts that called for help in early May when they were caught in a storm 500 miles south of the Azores archipelago.

And, I think there might still be a Sawn 46 (Bella Luna / Wolfhound ?), from 2 years ago, out there as well...if she hasn't succumbed to the sea (or drifted ashore)!



fair winds..

John
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Old 27-01-2016, 17:00   #233
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

An update from the L400 skipper. Excuse the Google translation...

Our report Sea
Published July 13, 2015 by Sophie & Claude

Hello, many of you wonder what really happened the night of 6 to 7 May 2015, it is difficult when we relate the circumstances of the accident, which is why we publish our report date sea.

The circumstances are difficult attention to you sensitive people, the story just hit your sensitivity.

~~ This publication is all rights reserved, thank you to you a journalist not to copy the item out of respect for ourselves and our family!

"On Friday, April 24, 2015 after preparing background boat fills, we leave for the back recliner, from St Martin. The weather is perfect through starboard tack 15Nd for 3 days and then open sea port tack 20 knots for 5 days then finish with no wind and wind turning nds 10-15. The first day (25/04), the port side engine fan fails. We planned to change it because it was an abnormal noise from the bouncer go, but the room Replacement of arrival at the dealership was not good. The commercial LAGOON, M.Tanguy HUBERT (Lagoon Martinique) tells us that ours still works it is not necessary to change the !. The 2nd day (26 / 04), it is the generator on the starboard engine fails. We have a generator, 540W solar panel, wind turbine 15 amps and starboard engine. No problem, it'll be enough, we decide to continue our way. The first three days are the file perfectly. (26/26/27/04) The following 5 days between 15 and 25 open sea. Perfect 150 °. On the ninth day (04/05): MaxSea files downloaded Announces far north depression that descends to the Azores, my onshore router confirms and advises me on a heading of 110 ° instead of 67, so we turn to heading 120 ° more security and makes the night the wind rises to 50 nd but no sea, we affalons sails, we strap it onto the balm for less wind resistance. On the tenth day (05/05), 40 knots always established after checking the files Gribbs indicates 28 knots; we decide to heading 140 °, but the wind continues forcir 60nd. Sea heaps hour after hour. A wave hits us to the stern, water enters through the seal bonnet, this causes a short circuit, which triggers a fire starting at the solar panel controller and will burn the entire harness. Smoke escapes into the rear chamber port, we will harness the fire using fire extinguishers. We can recharge the battery only with our generator and the port engine. It remains 10 liters of petrol for the group. The 11th day (06/05), we head to 162 °, the files indicate a quieter area but gets stuck with winds of 60 knots to 82 knots which forciront, a sea anchor and mooring will be installed to a shell to each other with a flat anchor 14kg. Despite this the boat surfs at 32 knots on the surfs from 12 to 20m and which will break the tether anchor. We will have several lurches back very nearly Dreams of three O reprises.Je decides to run the engines in reverse. Unfortunately, the rest of the end of the rope is caught in the drive sail causing a leak. I can cut the rope but part is firmly stuck. The following will surfs because of the sea anchor and sail drive 2nd: listening to boom fell into the water and block it. Waves, wind, water ways, more power, longer engine, we decide to trigger the emergency beacon. The boat is not manoeuvrable and becomes very dangerous, the risk of capsizing is real. The boat is under bare poles and heading is about 140 ° (SSE) The wind NNW NNW cross-sector sector The waves triggered tag, organize relief. It will be a tanker which deviate his way to assist us. After about 6 hours of waiting a tanker arrives on us. huge it does not seem to want to stop you do not understand his maneuver! The tanker addresses Dreams of O by the starboard rear shell causing a leak tore the solar panels and davits, the shock is violent children and my wife fall to the ground screaming in fear, they are very poorly . The ship launches us tips but why? At no time of the approach, the captain described his maneuver us by VHF: except that one sentence: let us we take care of everything (in English.) The first attempt tanker is positioned under the Dreams of wind of O, bow to the south of the tanker mooring lines are launched, O Dreams of the starboard float is plated on the tanker, the tab before transfers, Dreams of O rotates to port (mooring the rear is still in place ) and is found plastered on the tanker on its port side hull, the front of the float is heavily damaged and broken guy. After the second failed attempt rescue, I decided to bump the raft, the O Dreams begins to sink, I had to put myself into the water as the liferaft is blocked by the davits, panels Solar and Annex ripped off by the cargo ship and I get my family on the trampoline. I quickly cut the link between Dreams of O and raft, indeed Dreams of O sank in the back in less than 5 minutes taking everything with itself the necessary emergency stored on deck. The raft drifting towards the back of the tanker, we are all four on board, I hits a parachute rocket, after the tanker two approaches we can enter one end to hang the raft, but the swell of several meters will fill very soon the raft. We try to catch the ladder but the swell us up several meters and down abruptly. Very difficult to get on the flank of the tanker "empty of any cargo" with the roll and nearly 26m high I get to hang the ladder with my daughter, itself attached to my harness, unfortunately my daughter falls hanging to me, after several shots surf, I finally let go. Hence drifting with my daughter, I manage to catch a piece of the tanker along but the power of the sea takes us back to the drift. I shout "Help help" but no help, no raft, buoy or any floating object. I drift quickly and after 20 minutes the tanker still does not change its course, it remains stationary then disappears into the swell. I think with a quick calculation drift he could move in our direction. We will derive even for hours, the cold makes us suffer. I stand by my daughter in my arms and surface I sing with her to keep her awake. She suffers I know! Several hours pass, and an airplane launches lights to signal our position but still nobody. In the morning, a freighter comes to us I swam with all my strength. I cry help my daughter but still no raft or object flottant.Après one hour, and I realize I swim against the tide a life raft, it is not far (30 meters) but with the strength of I know that would reach tens of minutes later. I hoist my daughter in an attempt to revive, relief finally arrive unfortunately too late for my daughter, her heart dropped .......... A boat the boat brings us relief and gathers us My daughter is supported immediately by a medical team of the hospital ship Esperanza Unfortunately, his heart dropped ............. My Wife and my son managed to climb aboard the ship, they will leave on Guadeloupe .... me and my daughter will arrive on the 10/05 HORTA morning (10 am local) I declare this report and sincere true, reserving the right to expand if necessary. Done at the Rochelle June 10, 2015 Mr. "Claude HACHET
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Old 27-01-2016, 17:03   #234
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Conditions at the time of rescue
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And some more detail on their blog
http://revesdo.over-blog.com/2015/07...nauffrage.html
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Old 27-01-2016, 17:54   #235
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Shocking story. Heart rending.
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Old 27-01-2016, 17:57   #236
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Horrifying account and photo. Lots of bad luck heaped together.
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Old 28-01-2016, 01:35   #237
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

What a horrible tragedy. I read about it months ago, but the Google translation, though
flawed, brings it home, in both the difficulties of the sea conditions and the events. My heart goes out to that poor man, doing everything he could to keep his daughter alive for hours....


....and for the rest of us, look at some U-tubes, and see those rope ladders, and understand how huge waves could make you lose your grasp, and send good wishes to that family who lost their daughter.

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Old 28-01-2016, 08:03   #238
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Yep, really sad story. I've been keeping an eye out for information from the owner, given that at the time reports ranged from capsized to sunk to fire etc. (and we have a sister ship) I'm glad he posted the report as it gives us all something to learn by. Reading the report it seems the skipper made some good decisions early on by altering course to try clear the worst of the storm, dropping the sails and preparing a drogue. It seems the drogue setup wasn't adequate for the conditions (not surprising looking at the photo) even though it had a 14kg anchor attached they were still surfing at 35kt! And eventually attachment fittings broke, lines tangled with props and loss of steering etc. An incredibly sad chain of events and it sounds like the skipper made all the best decisions available at the time. Surviving overnight and then being found the next morning...amazing...
It must have been a very difficult time for the family and it's good to see they've bought a new yacht and are back out sailing...
Really the whole story makes me shiver and admire their determination at overcoming adversity against incredible odds..
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Old 28-01-2016, 08:27   #239
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

We must try to learn lessons.
Here's my take:

Its unlikely to be 1 thing that goes wrong but a chain of events. And this trip had the lot. He did incredibly well.

Hypothermia. I have a wetsuit in my grab bag.

Only sail in the right season.
April is too early for that passage.
Early May is too early for that passage.
Mid May is too early for that passage.
That passage has a 6 week window from late May thru June imho.
July is too late.

There is no need to go to the Azores. They are just a stop off point to break the passage. If they were not there many boats would route south of them in safer waters.

The classic route is for old sailing ships who needed wind up the bum. We don't.

Cats need a Jordan Series Drogue. Monos have a choice of that or parachute anchor.

Getting on a ship at sea is not a safe or easy task. Those seas were huge. But there was no choice.

The family did incredibly well and its such a shame the little girl died after all the effort put in by the family.
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Old 28-01-2016, 08:54   #240
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pirate Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

That crossing is to me a case of wrong place wrong time anytime..
I've crossed in Feb/March.. April/May and June/July's from the S with no bad weather.. brief 7-8 in a squall but nothing prolonged.. tho' boat who've left before or after me have copped it..
Only time I've been 'clobbered' was the NC-Bermuda-Azores route.. both times.. a May start and a June start..
I have been known to sit and wait a few weeks for a favourable pattern to develop if not working to someone else's schedule.
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