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Old 19-05-2015, 10:08   #196
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Nice story and curious and lovely Helgoland isn't it? One of my favorite wee spots. Anyhow, well written and eloquent as usual. Not much to add at all, just that it should be remembered that the added buoyancy at the stern is what can drive a pitchpole if the bow gets buried in a steep trough while on the surf. In your boat much less likely, but in the pizza pie shaped modern designs with very fine entry, zero flare or overhang, so no reserve buoyancy, and wide, inviting buttocks, getting driven into the sea like a tent peg is significantly more likely, as the stern massively outguns the bow, with its arrow like point buried in the sea… Just a note your discussion of pitchpoling and stern buoyancy made me think to make.

That's when a speed limiting drogue comes into play.

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Old 19-05-2015, 10:12   #197
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
That's when a speed limiting drogue comes into play.

Matt
Believe me when I tell you that running before a stupidmassive NorEaster 26 years ago in the Atlantic with lots of fun knock down and semiinversion time made me all kinds of interested in drag devices. The DDD and Hinz and the Pardeys and Adlard Coles and you name it I've read it and pretty much most types I've tried at one time or another… and yeah… they do work. Within limits. And believe me when I tell you that there are some seas that do not observe the "speed limit" of such things! They do help, for sure. They will make a pitchpole less likely. But certain to prevent? Don't even consider that idea.
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Old 19-05-2015, 10:19   #198
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Nice story and curious and lovely Helgoland isn't it? One of my favorite wee spots. Anyhow, well written and eloquent as usual. Not much to add at all, just that it should be remembered that the added buoyancy at the stern is what can drive a pitchpole if the bow gets buried in a steep trough while on the surf. In your boat much less likely, but in the pizza pie shaped modern designs with very fine entry, zero flare or overhang, so no reserve buoyancy, and wide, inviting buttocks, getting driven into the sea like a tent peg is significantly more likely, as the stern massively outguns the bow, with its arrow like point buried in the sea… Just a note your discussion of pitchpoling and stern buoyancy made me think to make.
Thread drift, but I agree about wedgie boat design here. Which have some great advantages, but not for hard weather, for the reasons you describe. Plumb bows maximize waterline length, which is great, but there's no extra buoyancy! These designs greatly increase the difference in buoyancy between bow and stern -- not always a good thing and sometimes a very, very bad thing.

My boat does not have a plumb bow, nor the fat buttocks of a wedgie, but for hard weather use, her bow could be less plumb than it is. I have wanted for more buoyancy in the bow on a number of occasions and can't imagine having less, in the places I sail.

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Old 19-05-2015, 10:56   #199
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Smile Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Thread drift, but I agree about wedgie boat design here. Which have some great advantages, but not for hard weather, for the reasons you describe. Plumb bows maximize waterline length, which is great, but there's no extra buoyancy! These designs greatly increase the difference in buoyancy between bow and stern -- not always a good thing and sometimes a very, very bad thing.

My boat does not have a plumb bow, nor the fat buttocks of a wedgie, but for hard weather use, her bow could be less plumb than it is. I have wanted for more buoyancy in the bow on a number of occasions and can't imagine having less, in the places I sail.

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She's Aye a beauty nonetheless!
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Old 19-05-2015, 11:04   #200
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Thread drift, but I agree about wedgie boat design here. Which have some great advantages, but not for hard weather, for the reasons you describe. Plumb bows maximize waterline length, which is great, but there's no extra buoyancy! These designs greatly increase the difference in buoyancy between bow and stern -- not always a good thing and sometimes a very, very bad thing.

My boat does not have a plumb bow, nor the fat buttocks of a wedgie, but for hard weather use, her bow could be less plumb than it is. I have wanted for more buoyancy in the bow on a number of occasions and can't imagine having less, in the places I sail.

Attachment 102347
As to thread drift? Well… not quite, I would say, as pitchpoling is very much a concern in conditions such as those being discussed. As to uncomfortable wedgies…
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Old 19-05-2015, 15:40   #201
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

FYI, I just came across this Norwegian news source about the Swan that was abandoned --apparently sailed by a "very experienced" Norwegian sailor (Jan Kroger), along with other experienced crew (that the article says has sailed with the King of Norway...for whatever that's worth!). Article says they encountered an "inferno" of waves...hmm...not very revelatory, but unless anyone can read Norwegian, I bought there'll be any more info or crew interviews forthcoming in the English-language press...

"Wave inferno" sounds like layperson speak (reporter translation) for "confused seas".

Beyond that, it's pure speculation...medical emergency...psychological breakdown, crew outvoted captain and demanded rescue, etc. Who knows?

Sailboat crew caught in wave ‘inferno’

Note: the site appears to only allow one view until it fades and asks you to become a subscriber.

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I'm having a hard time understanding the abandonment of this boat.

First let me say I in no way am being critical. I wasn't there and I'm sure there are circumstances I do not know about. Those same circumstances may have also made me push the big red buttton.


The boat seems to be sailing well, not listing and seems to be taking the waves nicely, rising as it should. They apparently have a drogue (or similar) out, slowing the boat. All the crew readily jump in the water to be picked up indicating that, if injured, the injuries are not incapacitating. While there are breaking waves, there don't seem to be that many and the wave period appears to be longish.

Have they made any public statements? I can't find any on the net.

I believe that at the point of the rescue, the storm had moved past them and they were in the aft quadrants (please correct if I'm wrong)
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Old 19-05-2015, 16:31   #202
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jud View Post
FYI, I just came across this Norwegian news source about the Swan that was abandoned --apparently sailed by a "very experienced" Norwegian sailor (Jan Kroger), along with other experienced crew (that the article says has sailed with the King of Norway...for whatever that's worth!). Article says they encountered an "inferno" of waves...hmm...not very revelatory, but unless anyone can read Norwegian, I bought there'll be any more info or crew interviews forthcoming in the English-language press...

"Wave inferno" sounds like layperson speak (reporter translation) for "confused seas".

Beyond that, it's pure speculation...medical emergency...psychological breakdown, crew outvoted captain and demanded rescue, etc. Who knows?

Sailboat crew caught in wave ‘inferno’

Note: the site appears to only allow one view until it fades and asks you to become a subscriber.
"Wave Inferno" sounds rather consistent with what Muckle described from watching the video.
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Old 19-05-2015, 17:07   #203
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

"Krøger suspects the boat eventually sunk"

Structural damage i guess.

I experienced 'test' inferno scenario close to shore. More like 3m waves. Serious stuff.

Double that (or more) to get what these guys went thru. Anyone thinking boat can take it safely, should try first.

Wave simply rises out of nowhere and you just happen to be on top of that "to be wave". Boat propelled up in the air and then landing somehow.
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Old 19-05-2015, 17:56   #204
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Skipper Guttorm Guttormsen and crew of three are safely ashore on the Azores after they had to leave, "Kolibri" Wednesday. "Kolibri" is a Swan 44 from the early 70th century and have been on a nearly two-year voyage to Brazil and the Caribbean.

Powerful storms
- It was an inferno with probably 15 meters high waves. Some waves were so choppy and high that I've never seen anything like it and I hope I never see anything like that again, says Jan Krøger NRK. Swan 44 is designated as a safe and sturdy sailing ship, but the boat was turned around by the waves. The top of the mast was in the water twice before the boat finally capsized despite fr that sails were recovered. Swan 44 has more weight in the keel, and is narrower than the current boats. It allows the inverters to rapid cooling back on again. It also made "Kolibri".

In March, the 55-foot Polish expedition ship turned around by the waves west of Bergen. Read: What happened to "Magnus Zaremba» here.

Technical problems
January Krøger report that little work on board after notification for, but fortuitously worked satellite phone so the crew had notified.
Eventually, they also start the engine.
The crew should have kept quiet. When they were picked up by helicopter at 6:04 p.m. they had waited for six hours.
Guttormsen and Krøger the two experienced sailors aboard. They were 350 nautical mil from the Azores when the incident happened. They hadnt then sailed for 11 days. January Krøger fear that the boat now has decreased.

Several EU
The Coast Guard says that they had to assist several ships in difficulty Wednesday. Rescuers should totally have picked up eight other fighters, in addition to the four Norwegians. A total of five boats landed in distress.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...1RRVdJ6oA2PaiQ
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Old 20-05-2015, 01:15   #205
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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She's Aye a beauty nonetheless!
Thank 'ee!
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Old 20-05-2015, 06:26   #206
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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I hope they will update their blog when they get proper rest and stress out some. Will be fantastic to read a first hand account from that terrible weather.
b.
I just talked to the skipper of Missy and he will update their blogg in due time. They are both well and are now doing damage assessment. Nothing on the hull or rigging seem to be damaged.

We don't know where the 8 times knockdown came from. They were knocked down a few times and once they probably did 360 degrees.

I will let the crew tell you the rest of the story when they have recovered enough to spend time on the blog.

The blog : OE32 Missy | Loggbok för Missy
I don't think the translation works at the moment but I will help them fix that when they have written about their experience.

/Hans
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Old 15-06-2015, 14:59   #207
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Maybe another year avoid the great circle route to England?

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=iipCharts
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Old 15-06-2015, 16:49   #208
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

Good god. How timely. I've been engaged in reading the Titanic Inquiries over the last few weeks.

Titanic Inquiries
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Old 15-06-2015, 17:17   #209
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Maybe another year avoid the great circle route to England?

Ice Patrol Charts & Chart Archives
Thanks for that. Heading out in 2 weeks on that route. Surprised to see so much still around.
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Old 16-06-2015, 04:00   #210
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Re: 2015 Another bad year in the Azores..?

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Thanks for that. Heading out in 2 weeks on that route. Surprised to see so much still around.
You're two weeks out from a great circle route crossing and you haven't bothered to investigate the ice conditions?

To each his own. Last year ice in the Labrador Current was at a thirty-year high. So far, this year doesn't look much better.

FWIW on our crossing last July I noticed all the container ships went around the iceberg limit as did we. I suggest you do the same.
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