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Old 14-11-2013, 11:37   #331
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That's not the point , the point is that action involving firearms will inevitability brings issues for parties. Dave
Yes, as does action with machetes, knifes, flareguns, mace, pepperspray, baseball bats, fire extinguisers, winch handles, flares, smoke signals, and so on. All that anti-gun rethoric is tiring; all these others weapons can kill as dead as a gun.
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Old 14-11-2013, 11:53   #332
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Re: Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

I am a female delivery Captain. I am NOT going to tangle with any natives on my vessel. I fire a warning shot and this usually works and they run. When they don't run, I have no other option but to shoot them. I aim for a leg but in the heat of battle the shot could go high to the chest. As Dave says, after that you are in for a world litigation, jail, fines and worse. Money works, lots of it..........I speak from personal experience. One must remember, all this happens really, really fast, at light speed and one must have convictions in there actions before the situation happens. Know what you are going to do before the play begins. I hope this dialogue brings the "undecideds" to some type of realistic solution to a pending nightmare.
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Old 14-11-2013, 12:16   #333
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We sailed our 52' Kanter through every island on the Caribbean in the last two years. Some good experiences, some bad. Before leaving, during the refit, we had a stainless steel craftsman install removable sliding bars in the Lewmar hatches. We had only seen these on one other boat, but he did a beautiful job and we were very pleased. I slept better, as we could leave the hatches open and still be secure. We also could leave the hatches open when off the yacht for the day. I considered it the best investment we made in our security, but we also carry secured firearms, pepper "bear" spray mounted in specific places and use a cockpit motion detector with alarm.

The purpose of this post is to relate that the responses of the cruisers who visited our yacht most interested me. The majority of cruisers were negative about the installation of the hatch bars, not because of the aesthetics, but because of the message they felt we were sending to locals. Many cruisers commented that they would not install these as it looked like an insult to the locals, that we expected to be robbed. The alternative is to leave the boat open, as the lewmar hatches are only "locked" with plastic catches.

I never entered into a debate with these fellow cruisers, but I have travelled all over the world in my line of work and it is clear to me that anchoring in an isolated harbor in Haiti is not the same as anchoring in Norfolk VA. Although not applicable in this case, I have seen cruisers do really stupid things outside of the US. The world is changing rapidly, and US citizens are not favored. Sadly, I often take down our US flag in areas where we feel it is a liability.

Cruisers need to wake up, pay attention and take care of themselves. This is not a negative comment on this couple, or this incident, just a general report of the real world situation.

Never miss the opportunity help a fellow cruiser, we have made some lifelong friends from incidental meetings.
Happy and safe cruising to all.
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Old 14-11-2013, 13:29   #334
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Re: Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

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Originally Posted by xxuxx View Post
I am NOT going to tangle with any natives on my vessel. I fire a warning shot and this usually works and they run. When they don't run, I have no other option but to shoot them. I aim for a leg but in the heat of battle the shot could go high to the chest.
You post like you have a lot of experience doing this.

So how many times have you fired into the air, how many have you wounded, and how times have your shot gone high?
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Old 14-11-2013, 14:20   #335
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Re: Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

It is important to distinguish the self-defense rights in the US and the rest of the world when it comes to using deadly force. Whereas in the US it is a given right, not so outside the borders. It is a very gray area and falling in the judicial system of a foreign country will yield years of proceedings and likely jail time.

I would recommend to all cruisers to stay on the defense as much as possible. If you have a weapon even more so. Attackers are usually after your belongings and would walk away rather than fight you for them. Yes there are rare cases in which they do, but even so killing one of them in a scuffle (be it violent) over a wallet or a camera would not go too well with the local courts or the public.

I'll give you an example. A few weeks ago I got attacked at an ATM machine while vacationing in Europe (country will be left out, but yes they have crime there too). Three guys watched me as I left the marina and after withdrawing money they surrounded me, one of them holding a knife and threatening me. What ensued with the help of a police patrol was nothing short of a Hollywood script, but after a wild chase I had my money and wallet back and they were handcuffed face down.

What would have happened if I had a gun on me? Probably they would be laying down cold on the pavement and I'd be in jail trying to explain that's how we do things in the US of A so their laws should allow me to do it there as well. Sure, after a few months or years ordeal I'll probably go home, but it is a very fine line. I had a very long discussion with the local cops and they explained laws were very open when it comes to deadly force and absolutely nothing allows me to use it, so it is up to the courts and they do not work on a precedent basis.

Do not cross this line or even think about crossing it unless you absolutely, positively know your life is in absolute danger and nothing but doing so will save you. Leave the Dirty Harry tactics out and use your brain.
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Old 14-11-2013, 14:26   #336
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Re: Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

Needless to say my comments pertain to territorial waters. If you are in international waters by all means fire a bazooka at dangers if you want.
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Old 14-11-2013, 14:36   #337
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Re: Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
All that anti-gun rethoric is tiring;
Not nearly as tiring as the Rambo pro-gun rhetoric. Now we have a poster who is so used to shooting people on a boat he/she has a system for doing it. Aim for the leg? Right!!

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Originally Posted by xxuxx
I am NOT going to tangle with any natives on my vessel. I fire a warning shot and this usually works and they run. When they don't run, I have no other option but to shoot them. I aim for a leg but in the heat of battle the shot could go high to the chest.
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Old 14-11-2013, 15:47   #338
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes, as does action with machetes, knifes, flareguns, mace, pepperspray, baseball bats, fire extinguisers, winch handles, flares, smoke signals, and so on. All that anti-gun rethoric is tiring; all these others weapons can kill as dead as a gun.
Thank you Jedi. I wasn't up to getting involved in this, but your comments needed to be said.

The anti gun rhetoric is definitely tiring and in my view unwarranted.
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Old 14-11-2013, 15:56   #339
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post

Yes, as does action with machetes, knifes, flareguns, mace, pepperspray, baseball bats, fire extinguisers, winch handles, flares, smoke signals, and so on. All that anti-gun rethoric is tiring; all these others weapons can kill as dead as a gun.
What anti gun rhetoric. The debate was( is) about defence. And all those items are fine , but while most countries don't have laws concerning say winch handles , they do have loads about the use of firearms. I'm a gun enthusiast, I'm am not a fan of using them for defence unless the consequences are understood.

What gets me is the macho bullshit ( " they will hear the sound of my mossberg" ) stuff. Most gun owners are more likely to shot their own toes.

I just pro gun anti idiot.

Dave
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Old 14-11-2013, 16:05   #340
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Re: Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

I appreciate the options expressed on both end of the spectrum, especially the ones that are well presented and not too emotional. It's an issue all cruisers need to think about. Personally, I don't know where I stand, somewhere on the fence post I guess and that's not best position in an attack.

I had an occasion to think about this a lot here in Thailand recently. It involve my house not a boat but the same decisions need to be made. Someone attempted to break into our house while we were sleeping in the bedroom. We heard some noise and got up to investigate. Apparently, they knew we were up and fled. What would I have done if we had confronted them? There are things in the house that could be used as weapons but we had none in hand. Could I/would I have been able to use them if necessary? Should I? And if so, at what point in a confrontation? Seems the line between being threaten and not is very slim. Which side do you err on?

A lot to think about.
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Old 14-11-2013, 16:06   #341
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What anti gun rhetoric. The debate was( is) about defence. And all those items are fine , bit while most countries don't have laws concerning say such handles , they do have loads about the use of firearms. I'm a gun enthusiast, I'm am not a fan of using them for defence unless the consequences are understood. What gets me is the macho bullshit ( " they will hear the sound of my mossberg" ) stuff. Most gun owners are more likely to shot their own toes. I just pro gun anti idiot. Dave
But like Jedi said, the consequences are likely the same if you kill someone with a machete or a shotgun.

If you feel that you are likely to shoot your own toes, it is probably wise on your part not to carry a shotgun. Those of us that own and know how to handle a shotgun and are unlikely to face a risk of losing our toes are probably better off with one in remote areas with a limited police presence.
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Old 14-11-2013, 16:08   #342
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I think that once one is threatened, they change their views on this issue.
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Old 14-11-2013, 16:09   #343
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I am a female delivery Captain. I am NOT going to tangle with any natives on my vessel. I fire a warning shot and this usually works and they run. When they don't run, I have no other option but to shoot them. I aim for a leg but in the heat of battle the shot could go high to the chest. As Dave says, after that you are in for a world litigation, jail, fines and worse. Money works, lots of it..........I speak from personal experience. One must remember, all this happens really, really fast, at light speed and one must have convictions in there actions before the situation happens. Know what you are going to do before the play begins. I hope this dialogue brings the "undecideds" to some type of realistic solution to a pending nightmare.
Just lets be clear, in most countries to invoke self defence protection, you have to be at risk of attack. So lets say the " natives" climb onto your boat , if you appear with a firearm or discharge a firearm , you could be charged. Even after firing your warning shot they don't move , maybe their frozen in fear , now shooting them , could get you charged with murder.

It's a complex situation.

Just to reiterate , this isn't about pro or anti gun, this is about the reality of using firearms as a deterrence in many countries , what I'm trying to get across to a predominantly US audience, is you cannot bring your domestic views with you , whether you are a " shoot em if they blink " merchant or not is utterly irrelevant.

I'm not advocating or opposing the carrying or even use of guns , merely debating the consequences that can occur if you use them without thinking. ( or being aware of the local consequences )

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Old 14-11-2013, 16:11   #344
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I think that once one is threatened, they change their views on this issue.
I've been threatened by men with armalites. I was ever so glad not to be armed at the time. The outcome would not have been nice.

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Old 14-11-2013, 16:18   #345
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But like Jedi said, the consequences are likely the same if you kill someone with a machete or a shotgun.

If you feel that you are likely to shoot your own toes, it is probably wise on your part not to carry a shotgun. Those of us that own and know how to handle a shotgun and are unlikely to face a risk of losing our toes are probably better off with one in remote areas with a limited police presence.
I'm quite confident with toes , at this stage of my target shooting career , I'm quite happy I could shoot off each one by one, mine or others.

But that's not my point , not in fact is it yours.

This section of the debate started , because a poster claimed , that essentially , outside the US , you can't defend yourself. Patiently that's nonsense, but you do have to bear in mind the particular view that many countries take about the use of firearms. That's all I was saying. Whether such firearms are useful or achieve the desired defence, relies a lot on the particular situation at hand. To argue a firearm is like a winch handle is to argue nonsense and ignore the particular legal issues surrounding the use of such items.

Dave
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