Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

[reefhunter]

Our best wishes to Mark & Christina - hoping a speedy recovery.

A couple of things come to mind:

* The flare pistol should not be discharged in the cabin. You know these young soon to be killers - will either back out of there or duck and you will have burned your ship;

* We've found over the years the best defence is Bear Spray and lots of little canisters spread around the boat. One in the doghouse, one in the galley (away from the burner), one each in the cabins and one in the dinette and one on each crew members belt. You have to be able to reach one and fire it off (preferably away from you - or downwind) in less than 5 sec. That takes practice, esp since you are surprised and scared. Fire extinguishers work too, but they weigh considerably more.

I don't advise pistols, unless you kill them and dump it overboard along with their bodies and let the sharks have a late dinner.

I have attached a current world murder stats - it's shocking!

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by sck5

On the Dominica boat boys - Last time I was there (two years ago now) they were quite well organized. Each boat was met by whichever boat boy's turn it was and there was no swarming or hassling. I found it expedient to tip the guy for helping me find a place to anchor and then told him I was happy and didnt need/want anything. He left me alone and so did all the others. The time before that I got a ride over to customs and then into town and then back to the boat because I was feeling lazy and didnt want to unstrap my dink. It was cheap and hassle free. Maybe it has deteriorated since then?

How much?

How cheap?

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by jared1048

And I'm going with 8 other friends and family on a 10 day charter at the end of the month to Grenada! Hopefully our greater numbers will keep us safer...

Grenada is fine.

[colemj]

Reefhunter, interesting stats (thanks) and interesting way of interjecting a pro-gun stance into this thread.

However, I can assure you that Guatemala does not ban guns - contrary to the statement you added to the statistics list. Many of the people walking around here are carrying them openly. They do ban them on public buses - you must hand them over to the bus driver when you board (men are frisked, women are on the honor system, I guess). You get them back when you exit the bus. This does not apply to the chicken buses or the municipal buses.

Similarly, Honduras also allows armed citizens and does not have a ban on guns.

Also, Brazil, Chile, Columbia, Mexico and Panama do not ban gun ownership by their citizens.

Venezuela banned guns only within the past year - which is probably after the compilation time of the statistics you provide.

There are probably many more countries on that list that do not ban guns - contrary to your statement. I suspect many more than those I list.

And murder rate statistics do not mean gun death statistics. How many machete deaths occur in the US? It is probably the most common murder weapon in the Caribbean.

Mark

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by colemj

Reefhunter, interesting stats (thanks) and interesting way of interjecting a pro-gun stance into this thread.

However, I can assure you that Guatemala does not ban guns - contrary to the statement you added to the statistics list.....

No need to let facts get in the way. They just cloud our predetermined opinions.

[sck5]

I gave the guy 5EC to help me anchor (not that I needed help but I figured I was buying some good will and also he got at least something for using up his turn on me) and 20 to take me to customs and back. It seemed to me that once you pay one of them they "own" you thereafter, or at least the other boat boys see it that way and leave you alone.

[RedHerring]

Originally Posted by reefhunter

I have attached a current world murder stats - it's shocking!

That link is "the bottom half of the current world murder stats". The only thing it demonstrates is how you can support any preconceived notion by selecting some of the raw data and discarding the rest of it. Quite blatantly discarding in this particular case.

Here is the full list: List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note how USA has the worst murder rate among the "golden billion" countries, vast majority of which does have a total gun ban. I.e., anti-gun zealots can use the same stats to support their ideas just as easily.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by sck5

I gave the guy 5EC to help me anchor (not that I needed help but I figured I was buying some good will and also he got at least something for using up his turn on me) and 20 to take me to customs and back. It seemed to me that once you pay one of them they "own" you thereafter, or at least the other boat boys see it that way and leave you alone.

What's an EC?



https://www.google.com/search?q=What...m=122&ie=UTF-8

[reefhunter]

Originally Posted by colemj

Reefhunter, interesting stats (thanks) and interesting way of interjecting a pro-gun stance into this thread.

However, I can assure you that Guatemala does not ban guns - contrary to the statement you added to the statistics list. Many of the people walking around here are carrying them openly. They do ban them on public buses - you must hand them over to the bus driver when you board (men are frisked, women are on the honor system, I guess). You get them back when you exit the bus. This does not apply to the chicken buses or the municipal buses.

We've been going to C.A. for years and only guardia have carried weapons.

Similarly, Honduras also allows armed citizens and does not have a ban on guns. Also, Brazil, Chile, Columbia, Mexico and Panama do not ban gun ownership by their citizens.

As visitors you cannot bring one into their countries, but I'll bet you have. I don't like losing my boat for doing something stupid.

Venezuela banned guns only within the past year - which is probably after the compilation time of the statistics you provide.

Yes after Hugo died and Maduro cracked down.

And murder rate statistics do not mean gun death statistics. How many machete deaths occur in the US? It is probably the most common murder weapon in the Caribbean.Mark

Yeah, right - don't let the facts get in the way. If you are an American you cannot enter Mexican or C.A. waters with firearms. Which is why we don't. The most dangerous port we've been in lately was Puerto Barrios, followed closely by Belize City. Gun crimes in Guatemala and Mexico are mainly among the cartels flexing their muscle and recruiting local police.
US gun crimes are smaller by percentage b/c of population.

[reefhunter]

Originally Posted by Therapy

What's an EC?

East Caribbean Dollar - US$1 = EC$2.70

[reefhunter]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Grenada is fine.

Yeah, maybe five years ago or if you're flagged Leeward-Windward. We haven't returned in several years b/c of the crime there. I'd rather visit Porlamar or Gran Roque instead. The fuel is dirt cheap and the seafood excellent. No problems at all.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by reefhunter

Yeah, maybe five years ago or if you're flagged Leeward-Windward. We haven't returned in several years b/c of the crime there. I'd rather visit Porlamar or Gran Roque instead. The fuel is dirt cheap and the seafood excellent. No problems at all.

LOL I am in Grenada now. Its safe.
Venezuela: Polimar is now dangerous. You cant buy fuel anymore; a cruiser was shot and killed on September 3rd in Margarita.
Las Roquas is fine... but to clear in you need to go to the mainland....

[colemj]

Originally Posted by reefhunter

We've been going to C.A. for years and only guardia have carried weapons.



As visitors you cannot bring one into their countries, but I'll bet you have. I don't like losing my boat for doing something stupid.

Yes after Hugo died and Maduro cracked down.



Yeah, right - don't let the facts get in the way. If you are an American you cannot enter Mexican or C.A. waters with firearms. Which is why we don't. The most dangerous port we've been in lately was Puerto Barrios, followed closely by Belize City. Gun crimes in Guatemala and Mexico are mainly among the cartels flexing their muscle and recruiting local police.
US gun crimes are smaller by percentage b/c of population.

You are intentionally confusing two facts - these countries do not have gun laws restricting their citizens (although they may have restrictions like background checks, permits, etc), while they do restrict non-citizens from having guns.

Just like the USA does. No different. In many of these countries, non-citizens can apply for, and eventually receive, gun permits (Panama, for example).

Murder crimes (again, you are making this a gun thread by calling murder crimes "gun crimes") are calculated taking population into account. For example "X crimes per 1,000 people". Your statement that US gun crimes are smaller by percentage because of a smaller US population simply does not make sense.

Your statement is even sillier when you consider that the US population is larger than that of most of those countries on your cherry-picked list.

You must not have spent much time in Guatemala. I saw dozens of handguns stuck in belts in Fronteras just this morning. Every time I ride the bus, there is a stack of turned-in handguns next to the driver.

We do not carry guns on our boat. I do own guns not on the boat, and have been hunting and target shooting since I was a very young kid.

You have not addressed the fact that your posted statistics were both cherry-picked, as well as the added commentary to them being completely wrong and utter BS.

You instead deflected the issue to one of gun laws as they pertained to foreigners.

Are you suggesting that the high murder rates in these countries are only from foreigners getting and using illegal guns?

Face it man, you buried yourself on this one. You could have simply posted world murder rate statistics, which make a point of their own regarding cruising Caribbean nations (and I thank you for that part), but you chose to hang yourself by cherry-picking numbers and (crudely) imposing a false analysis on them. Not to mention an analysis easily proven wrong - which wasn't very smart of you.

Suck it up and move on (and don't do it again).

Mark

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

With all the mocking, judging etc., it looks like we're back to the old wolves, sheep and sheepdogs again, so the last thing I'll say is that it doesn't matter what you plan to use to defend your family and yourself with or even put up no defense at all... as long as you think it over and make your plan on what to do in the situation. Sadly, 90% of the cruisers refuse to think about it and thus have no clue what to do when it matters.

Really? 90% of sailors who sail to unknown countries don't give a thought to their safety? Who did that research -- Boat US?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by hartcjhart

Guns,blah blah,pepper/mace spray,blah blah,
none of these are of much use when the crim has got on board unless you carry them at all times,
the dog,yep very good but not all peeps want poops on their boat,

the best way to stop/eliminate the risk is to make it as hard as poss for them to get on board
so auto lights/alarms
and cat strips along the deck sides like these
http://cactus-products.com/images/
then self defence which also means capitulating and letting them take what they want(apart from SWMBO)

Unfortunately, I know someone who was murdered last July. Because of the unsavory nature of the situation I won't say why he was living where he was, but he was surrounded by ex-convicts in a seedy trailer park.

Friends came to visit him that day and told him that he was making himself a target by wearing his expensive jewelry -- a nice gold chain with a sailboat on it, and a heavy gold chain bracelet. They told him that the people around him couldn't be trusted, but this person had gotten over-comfortable in his circumstances.

Nevertheless, he accepted their gift of a can of pepper spray and put it by his bed where he could reach it easily.

Sadly, not good enough. One of his neighbors murdered him in his bed that night for his jewelry. The pepper spray was there but he never had a chance to get it.

For myself I have no doubts. I would do *anything* to protect myself. During the Viet Nam war because of unusual circumstances, I knew a lot of young men who had been sent over. My husband and I had sort of taken them under our wings while they were in advanced basic training. Then one day all 32 of them were gone -- 31 to Viet Nam and one to Korea.

I started dreaming that I was trapped in a Saigon hotel being fired at -- and I was shooting back and feeling no "moral distress" about defending myself.

I have thought about this thread and can think of no good reason for "boat boys" to be climbing on to my boat uninvited at any time of the day or night. The question really is, will you be awake and alert enough in time? In a house, you're asleep at the back of the house or maybe on the second floor, and you have a few seconds to wake up completely and grab something to defend yourself with. The space on a boat is so much smaller. Things will happen faster.

Kudos to the man for succesfully fighting that vicious attack off, but I don't think I know anyone who wouldn't have done the same (maybe not as successfully).