Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-11-2014, 03:55   #31
Registered User
 
motaman9's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 151
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

I am asking this question purely to check my instincts and for future reference if faced with a similar circumstance......(fingers crossed that it never happens).....

I am unfamiliar with the area but the first thing that comes to mind for me would be to drop the sails in an effort to reduce way, drop anchor and try to clear/cut the halyard or sheet ? Or maybe even try to reverse it off the prop while keeping tension on the line? That worked once for me with an outboard when a dock line slipped overboard unnoticed. The sails appear to still be raised in the photos if I recall correctly. Granted, it would be pretty uncomfortable and might not hold you for long but it would surely be better than a total loss of the boat or buy you some time. Is that not feasible for some reason or am I missing something? Any idea what sort of distance we are talking about between the boat and the rocks when this began to unfold? Maybe the navigable area / channel is so narrow to the lee side as to not allow enough time or space for such actions and by the time you realize there is a problem it is already too late? If that is the case, is this an area better transited under more favorable conditions ?


Sailing somewhere.....
__________________

__________________
motaman9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 05:46   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Lagoon 410 S2 2006
Posts: 185
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

We were sailing downwind out of west end and following this on the VHF. They could not hear the USCG calls and it was good to hear others relay their calls for them. However they got in that situation it was probably terrifying for them. Mistakes can seem innocent enough at first then run a bad course. Glad they were all rescued. We ducked into Maho bay to sit out the many squalls rolling through. Not a good day at all to be out unless you were running. We were doing 5-7 kts on just 70pct jib alone in a 410 cat. Wind only yesterday finally died down.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
onefastdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 06:00   #33
Registered User
 
Rubikoop's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Thomas USVI
Boat: Freedom Express 39 cat ketch
Posts: 751
USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

To expand slightly on CaptJay's statements: Motor-sailing downwind would mean they were heading west away from Coral Bay, not entering into it. I'm very familiar with that area from racing and sailing in rough conditions that were similar to what would have been experienced during the incident. As mentioned by some here, ideally the sails are doused, the anchor goes out and holds, Seatow is called and tows the boat to a more sheltered place. Someone then gets into the water and frees the line from around the prop and rudder. In that location, in those conditions, most sane people would not get under a boat with a knife. Yes the seas were 3-5 and winds were 20-30. The problem is that the shoreline is very vertical making for extremely confused seas bouncing off the rocks along with currents. The bottom shallows up very quickly increasing wave height too. I also strongly doubt an anchor would actually hook and hold there. I sure would've tried though. I also have a rib with a 15hp that may have been able to buy some time or if very lucky, save the day.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Rubikoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 08:47   #34
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Heading west seems to be into Coral Bay, at least the one I found on Google that is on the east side of the island opening to the east.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubikoop View Post
To expand slightly on CaptJay's statements: Motor-sailing downwind would mean they were heading west away from Coral Bay, not entering into it. I'm very familiar with that area from racing and sailing in rough conditions that were similar to what would have been experienced during the incident. As mentioned by some here, ideally the sails are doused, the anchor goes out and holds, Seatow is called and tows the boat to a more sheltered place. Someone then gets into the water and frees the line from around the prop and rudder. In that location, in those conditions, most sane people would not get under a boat with a knife. Yes the seas were 3-5 and winds were 20-30. The problem is that the shoreline is very vertical making for extremely confused seas bouncing off the rocks along with currents. The bottom shallows up very quickly increasing wave height too. I also strongly doubt an anchor would actually hook and hold there. I sure would've tried though. I also have a rib with a 15hp that may have been able to buy some time or if very lucky, save the day.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 08:48   #35
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

"I, too, am disappointed with armchair pedantics heaping scorn on this incident. It was unfortunate, it was an error, it could happen to many, and it is fully insured by the charter company. Before anyone goes off on insurance, please understand that the charter insurance has nothing to do, and no bearing on, personal yacht insurance. Not any more than Microsoft's liability insurance effects your liability insurance." Colemj


Colemj,
We sailed in the Virgins for 6 years and visited every popular anchorage in both the BVI's and the AVI's. We are familiar with that area and specific anchorage. Firstly, who is the armchair sailor you are referring to? Where do you get your personal information? Secondly, how is pedantry--an excessive concern with minor details a pejorative in this incident. If the captain had paid greater attention to details such as wind, swell ,refractive waves and proximity to shore he probably would not have attempted that anchorage. Thirdly, no one ever said that anyone is immune from an accident but there are certainly situations that a competent and careful captain would avoid--in this case, entering that anchorage. Fourthly, is the fact that the boat was fully insured make the captain any less culpable for his actions? And, even if the boat will be replaced, what about the lost revenues for the charter company in booking future charters in the near future with the height of the charter season a month away. The world does not have a shortage of bleeding hearts. What the world does need are people who take personal responsibility for their actions and when they err--either by misfortune or incompetency, accept the criticism and consequences. We live in a "Don't Blame Me" ego-maniacal world where entitled, fame driven narcissists fueled by Facebook, Twitter and personal blog sites believe that everything they do from their morning coffee to their leisure time adventures must be recorded for posterity for certainly no future generations and cultures would be able to survive without the reportage of their incredible lives. Good luck and good sailing.
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 08:51   #36
Registered User
 
Rubikoop's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Thomas USVI
Boat: Freedom Express 39 cat ketch
Posts: 751
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Quote:
Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
Heading west seems to be into Coral Bay, at least the one I found on Google that is on the east side of the island opening to the east.

You are correct. I should've said southwest.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Rubikoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 10:04   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Boat: R&C, 2015 Leopard, 48
Posts: 19
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

I have to say I think motaman9 has the right perspective. That is - what can we learn from this.

As a former safety professional and trained and experienced accident investigator I can say there are normally I a few things that are common about accidents.
1) they are normally not the result of one failure, but rather a series of failures
2) if you pulled one of the failures out of the sequence the result would either be much less catastrophic or avoided altogether
3) the outside observer can many times think - that couldn't/wouldn't happen to me
4) fault should not be assigned until you know all the facts - many times the first impression is incorrect

I'm not disputing the fact that there are circus acts committed by charterers - I've seen plenty myself. I'm just saying a healthier reaction might be to look for ways to either prevent or minimize the impact of events like this than to heap criticism and tell yourself and others that nothing like this could ever happen to you.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
vida nueva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 10:48   #38
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

"I'm not disputing the fact that there are circus acts committed by charterers - I've seen plenty myself. I'm just saying a healthier reaction might be to look for ways to either prevent or minimize the impact of events like this than to heap criticism and tell yourself and others that nothing like this could ever happen to you." Vida Nueva


Vida,
I assume you are referring to a former comment of mine in regards to the "circus" atmosphere of the VI's. So, how do you prevent or minimize acts like these when people who are not really qualified charter a boat without a captain? Why would anyone choose Coral Bay as an anchorage when the wind was SE/S 30K as reported and the entire anchorage is one huge lee shore? Would not someone with ample experience consider that a bad if not dangerous choice? Is not criticism appropriate? Secondly, where in my above comments do I say that this could never happen to me? I haven't but, I will say it now. This could never happen to me because I would never choose a lee shore anchorage when the winds are blowing 30 knots. What's the point of giving someone the benefit of doubt when the act was patently foolish? Because we should be compassionate and feel the pain of others? If that's the case, I suggest you consider a career change and become a member of the clergy. You will have unlimited opportunities to exercise your compassion. In the mean time, why not consdider calling a spade a spade? Good luck and good sailing. Capt. Rognvald--a reluctant parishioner
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 12:34   #39
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
We sailed in the Virgins for 6 years and visited every popular anchorage in both the BVI's and the AVI's.
Then I guess it is hubris.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 12:54   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Boat: R&C, 2015 Leopard, 48
Posts: 19
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Capt R

So, how do you prevent or minimize acts like these when people who are not really qualified charter a boat without a captain?

So you KNOW for a fact the captain wasn't qualified?

Why would anyone choose Coral Bay as an anchorage when the wind was SE/S 30K as reported and the entire anchorage is one huge lee shore? Would not someone with ample experience consider that a bad if not dangerous choice?

So you KNOW for a fact what choices the captain had available to him/her and which choice he/she made?

What's the point of giving someone the benefit of doubt when the act was patently foolish?

And you KNOW that the captain had a perfectly operating boat and crew with no other factors involved that may have influenced their choices?

Because we should be compassionate and feel the pain of others?

I never said we should be compassionate about this captain. Please reread my point 4) fault should not be assigned until you know all the facts - many times the first impression is incorrect
[/QUOTE]
__________________
vida nueva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 13:21   #41
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Then I guess it is hubris.

Mark

The time we spent in The Virgins was a very small part of the 17000 miles we have sailed to date. Hubris? No. A personal opinion based upon experience. The term hubris, as you have used it above, is certainly an invective and employed as a personal attack by those in an argument when logic and reason cannot be used to intelligently support a position. Hubris, in this context, also implies that you know of my life and accomplishments which is hardly the case. Self confidence and hubris are not synonymous. They are the opposite and you obviously have them confused. I accept your statement and consider it as such. And, as a final remark, I have never sought to be a card carrying member of the herd--a group of which you seem to ardently support and seek to protect. Good luck and good sailing.
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 13:37   #42
Moderator Emeritus
 
Coops's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NSW.Australia
Boat: Sunmaid 20, John Welsford Navigator
Posts: 9,550
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Hubris. Definition.

Hubris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Coops.
__________________
When somebody told me that I was delusional, I almost fell off of my unicorn.
Coops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 18:47   #43
Registered User
 
Island Time O25's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,019
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Any one has the experience to answer the following question?

Would a dinghy with a 10-15HP OB and side lashed to the hull been able to motor this boat in those conditions? Would one even been able to lash it properly? Assuming some experience or average experience of the skipper and/or the crew.
__________________
Island Time O25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 19:57   #44
Registered User
 
zboss's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: On a boat
Boat: Cabo Rico 38
Posts: 3,426
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Any one has the experience to answer the following question?

Would a dinghy with a 10-15HP OB and side lashed to the hull been able to motor this boat in those conditions? Would one even been able to lash it properly? Assuming some experience or average experience of the skipper and/or the crew.
I'm not sure... there are south rollers headed right for shore in that location that are easily 10-14 feet on a regular basis, especially in the winter months, and as we know winter came early this year. Sailors tend to hug the shore too closely in the Virgins, so I assume this played a role. I'm not sure where the info came from that he was heading into Coral bay. Where was the boat foundered again?

There are several holes inside coral where one can seek refuge. If the cap had requested one of the balls from the park service, he could have been making his way there, or just left there.
__________________
zboss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 20:00   #45
Registered User
 
ontherocks83's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Boat: Checkmate Strobe 201
Posts: 1,593
Re: USCG Helicopter Rescue of Charter Boat Passangers in USVI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Any one has the experience to answer the following question?

Would a dinghy with a 10-15HP OB and side lashed to the hull been able to motor this boat in those conditions? Would one even been able to lash it properly? Assuming some experience or average experience of the skipper and/or the crew.
While I haven't towed a boat that big with an outboard of that size I have towed my 30' catalina with a 3 hp OB and I towed a 21' speedboat with my 6hp OB. Both of those were done in perfect conditions (no wind and on a calm lake) and they were very difficult to get going. Once moving momentum helped but any sort of wave caused you to almost stop. Time not being a factor to rig it up it may delay the grounding but in those conditions and my minimal experience towing with a dinghy I would say it wouldn't help much to fully prevent the accident. I'd put my luck on an anchor over a dink. Lastly in that situation with supposedly loss of steerage, side lashing would just spin you in circles.
__________________

__________________
-Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
-Molon Labe
ontherocks83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charter, rescue

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Arctic Helicopter Crash Update svmariane Polar Regions 4 28-09-2013 15:12
Crew Available: Helicopter Pilot robertob3 Crew Archives 0 31-05-2012 08:41
Crew Available: Helicopter and Jet Pilot Shevy03 Crew Archives 0 30-08-2011 13:27
Helicopter Crash on Newfoundland's Grand Banks GordMay Cruising News & Events 4 14-03-2009 05:19
Rescue Swimmers (USCG) - Yikes! David_Old_Jersey Health, Safety & Related Gear 21 07-11-2008 08:08



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:39.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.