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Old 25-01-2014, 15:55   #301
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Re: St Lucia murder

For those who have always lived on "the other side of the tracks" i understand the more relaxed attitude of "this will never happen to us" but keep in mind this is not your back yard and its him or you. You must have a plan in place. I am almost 50 years old now and I am not in the same physical condition as a few thugs in their 20,s but believe me being prepared (state of mind and accessibility of the tools to defend yourself) no matter how in human you may think is what will keep yours and my family safe. Its so sad to say but when your in this situation YOU are the one that has to be the attacker. You have to have it in you to kill.
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Old 25-01-2014, 16:08   #302
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Re: St Lucia murder

Ok, so to be clear I had all the good stuff, bars, spray etc on a previous boat.

My question about this incident is did the attackers make demands and were they refused? I think I read he was trying to defend his wife or some such. Were they seriously interested in some 60 something bird in that way?

It would seem to me just giving them what they want as far as money and shiny bits and bobs is a better way to go than telling them to bugger off and getting knifed.
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Old 25-01-2014, 16:23   #303
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Re: St Lucia murder

from what i read they were taken to separate cabins, beaten repeatedly.
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Old 25-01-2014, 16:28   #304
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Look at the picture that Mark posted again. Let it sink in that this is what they do to you.

You may want to reconsider surrendering to these butchers and you may want to reconsider going to these places.

Our countermeasures are much like those posted by Mark. I have bear spray for it's massive volume and range and I have the Mossberg for last resort.

Key is that the reinforced entrance wins you the time to wake up and execute the counter plan.
If you have to check in the Mossberg what good does it do?
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Old 25-01-2014, 16:38   #305
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Re: St Lucia murder

I was just curious about their intent. Seems strange they would just want to go beat on some people. I can see an older bloke yelling some racial slurs at them when they boarded and really pissing them off.

The problem with the bars is you're captive if your boarded by several attackers in a remote area. There was a boat boarded in Columbia maybe 15 years ago. The attackers beat on the hatch for several hours until they got in. Can't remember what happened, but can you imagine going thru that? Was in SSCA new letter I believe.
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Old 25-01-2014, 17:08   #306
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Re: St Lucia murder

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They are not stupid questions at all.

The companionway hatch locks on the inside with a padlock and I keep the key on the inside top step just next to a canister of capsicum spray thats velcro'ed to the bulkhead. The spray can squirt downwind into the cockpit through the companionway hatch which should make the cockpit untenable to stay.

The other hatches dont have bars but are locked except for the two above my head in my cabin. Next to my head I have another canister of capsicum but a gell that can be squirted into the wind out of the hatches.

There are five hatches apart from the companionway that I can get out in case of fire.

I also have a smoke detector.

Other tricks:
A large conister of gell, gang warefare size, of capsicum.
Two smoke flares. The idea is that at night orange smoke appears opaque and these can be put into the cockpit from the small window in the aft cabin, or out a forward hatch and thus blow back into the cockpit. Wont hurt anyone but would add to changing the mind of an attacker.
Flare gun that can be fired through the companionway hatch or up out of a forward hatch.
I leave the VHF on at night on the cruiser frequency, or if thats busy i turn the volume down, just so its on and I can hit the DSC button.
I have AIS on all the time so in distress I am easier to find.

It may all sound like overkill but i want to avoid the photo below

Note the towel on the ground below the companionway steps must be covering a lot of blood too.
The photo comes from the attack on the "Rainbow" in St Vincent in october last year. The injuries sustained by the two people were horrific. Utterly horrific. It was a very unusual attack as it occurred at 8:30 pm while the occupants were below having dinner. They think a cockpit light would have either prevented the attack or let them know someone was in the cockpit.

The important thing is to not let these security thing affect your cruising, just be a bit aware and take so,e simple precautions.


Mark
Mark has spoken the most sense IMHO on this topic, prevention is better than cure! Its not a big deal to have a metal grid made that you put into place before bed, fresh air will still move freely, the flares & spray are also a good idea! A deck bright light operated from a switch inside is also worth looking at! This thread started through the tragic news of Mr Pratts murder, it has certainly changed my thinking having seen all the different replies, I for one WOULD have slept very nite with ¨my door¨ wide open,that now will NOT be the case, although it will feel like it is open, others will have thier own ideas!
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Old 25-01-2014, 17:32   #307
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Jazz View Post
You have to have it in you to kill.
Indeed, those that have killed constitute about 0.000001% of the people on this forum. Those that could, maybe 0.001%....

(I probably need more zero's here)
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Old 25-01-2014, 18:08   #308
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Indeed, those that have killed constitute about 0.000001% of the people on this forum. Those that could, maybe 0.001%....



(I probably need more zero's here)







Just hope they speak English, ya?

Might honestly be more than you think, but yes for God's sake never brandish a weapon, use it, or you have probably made you life worse if you don't.
I would tell you to never threaten use of a weapon, no you need the element of surprise, you don't threaten, you use it, or not your choice, just be prepared for the consequences if you don't.
The idea of a "fair fight" is as much nonsense as a "noble savage"

Assuming they were taken to different cabins and beaten for a long time, does this sound like a robbery, you know the kind where violence could be prevented by giving them your valuables?
Anyone that forcibly breaks in knowing your there is not there to simply rob you, to do that they wait until you go ashore, then break in and rob you
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Old 25-01-2014, 18:20   #309
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Re: St Lucia murder

Everyone must understand that for a significant proportion of home invaders and boat invaders, it is S.O.P. to torture the inhabitants into disclosing the location of secret safes and other hidden treasures. Often a spouse or child will be tortured in view of parents etc. If you do have hidden valuables, normally this is when you reveal their locations. If you do not have hidden valuables, the criminals will finally figure it out after their torture and psychodrama sessions are over with no profitable secrets divulged. At this point, rape and murder are often in the cards.

So to surrender to armed criminal home or boat invaders in the hope that they are "nice non-violent" invaders, is a slim hope to rely upon. Fighting back, hard, is then the only choice. Unless you are willing to be marched, so to speak, into the restaurant's reefer and laid on your stomachs, to await either the coup de grace or for the criminals to leave.

Some folks, constitutionally, would never be able to fight back, so for them, meek surrender might be their only practical alternative. Others of us would not choose to give into criminals who might be fuelled by other motives besides simple greed, such as racial and class hatreds and resentments. In that case, you had better get mad-dog mean and fight tooth and nail. Unless you are willing to trust your wife and kids to possible homicidal maniacs. Even if they originally planned the invasion out of greed, they sometimes alter course when they see a pretty wife or daughter, for example.

I'm not willing to surrender, unless they had AK-47s leveled at close range. If they are boarding, I would hopefully be ready, with a prepared boarding channel / ambush zone, and weapons such as my own machete etc close at hand.

I'm not turning my wife or kids over to the tender mercies of a maniac or three armed with machetes, hoping that they are feeling charitable that particular night.

Machetes, spears, knives, clubs can all be dual-purpose "cockpit tools" that are close at hand. Where legal, pistols or shotguns (The Bahamas). Where not quite legal, spearguns, compound archery bows, slingshots etc for a bit of "stand off" range.

Beside studying their likely boarding route and channeling them into an ambush zone, the companionway can be hardened very easily, as with the chain link hatch board, or simple Kevlar line led zig-zag style between stout eye straps. Very easy to loosen and remove from the inside, but a great unexpected delay and entanglement for the invader, since they cannot see its attachment or end points from outside.

And I'm told that there are sub-caliber inserts that allow a .45 Long Colt or .410 shell to be safely fired from a milsurp 26.5mm flare gun. The innocuous piece of milled steel would not look out of place in a bin of spare engine parts. Or so I am told.
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Old 25-01-2014, 18:25   #310
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Everyone must understand that for a significant proportion of home invaders and boat invaders, it is S.O.P. to torture the inhabitants into disclosing the location of secret safes and other hidden treasures.
Great! Can you please link to the peer reviewed studies that have uncovered this critical information!
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Old 25-01-2014, 18:28   #311
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Re: St Lucia murder

Only problem I see with the flare gun inserts is that's a gun, may as well have a real gun capable of multiple shots.
I think if I were going to try to be covert with a firearm, I might go with a "bang stick". True you have to poke someone with that, but it's usually considered a defense against sharks. I don't know if that would help or not
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Old 25-01-2014, 18:29   #312
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St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by Travis McGee View Post
Everyone must understand that for a significant proportion of home invaders and boat invaders, it is S.O.P. to torture the inhabitants into disclosing the location of secret safes and other hidden treasures. Often a spouse or child will be tortured in view of parents etc. If you do have hidden valuables, normally this is when you reveal their locations. If you do not have hidden valuables, the criminals will finally figure it out after their torture and psychodrama sessions are over with no profitable secrets divulged. At this point, rape and murder are often in the cards.

So to surrender to armed criminal home or boat invaders in the hope that they are "nice non-violent" invaders, is a slim hope to rely upon. Fighting back, hard, is then the only choice. Unless you are willing to be marched, so to speak, into the restaurant's reefer and laid on your stomachs, to await either the coup de grace or for the criminals to leave.

Some folks, constitutionally, would never be able to fight back, so for them, meek surrender might be their only practical alternative. Others of us would not choose to give into criminals who might be fuelled by other motives besides simple greed, such as racial and class hatreds and resentments. In that case, you had better get mad-dog mean and fight tooth and nail. Unless you are willing to trust your wife and kids to possible homicidal maniacs. Even if they originally planned the invasion out of greed, they sometimes alter course when they see a pretty wife or daughter, for example.

I'm not willing to surrender, unless they had AK-47s leveled at close range. If they are boarding, I would hopefully be ready, with a prepared boarding channel / ambush zone, and weapons such as my own machete etc close at hand.

I'm not turning my wife or kids over to the tender mercies of a maniac or three armed with machetes, hoping that they are feeling charitable that particular night.

Machetes, spears, knives, clubs can all be dual-purpose "cockpit tools" that are close at hand. Where legal, pistols or shotguns (The Bahamas). Where not quite legal, spearguns, compound archery bows, slingshots etc for a bit of "stand off" range.

Beside studying their likely boarding route and channeling them into an ambush zone, the companionway can be hardened very easily, as with the chain link hatch board, or simple Kevlar line led zig-zag style between stout eye straps. Very easy to loosen and remove from the inside, but a great unexpected delay and entanglement for the invader, since they cannot see its attachment or end points from outside.

And I'm told that there are sub-caliber inserts that allow a .45 Long Colt or .410 shell to be safely fired from a milsurp 26.5mm flare gun. The innocuous piece of milled steel would not look out of place in a bin of spare engine parts. Or so I am told.
This is pure hysteria , if you are making these claims , back them up with facts . Where I live , it's very unlikely that any burglar will intentionally enter an occupied house. Most , > 90% of burglaries take place in daylight in unoccupied houses. armed domestic burglaries are extremely rare and I've never heard of people being " tortured "

It disgusts me that people debating this topic " parade " the spectacle of wife or daughter rape, when statistics show such events are extremely rare. It's pure " shock jock " tactics.

I'm all for a reasonable debate , but this nonsense is quite frankly sickening

Dave
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Old 25-01-2014, 18:33   #313
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Only problem I see with the flare gun inserts is that's a gun, may as well have a real gun capable of multiple shots.
I think if I were going to try to be covert with a firearm, I might go with a "bang stick". True you have to poke someone with that, but it's usually considered a defense against sharks. I don't know if that would help or not
The ATF says the steel insert is NOT a gun. No paperwork is required. It would disappear in a parts bin. Just an idea. I tossed 3 Ruger products overboard the day prior when forced to make an unscheduled fuel stop in Mexico. Some places, hiding a real gun is not worth the candle. But a 4" steel tube might be a different consideration.

Kennesaw Cannon Company .45LC/410 Gauge Barrel Insert for 26.5mm Flare Guns, Legally Shoot .410 Bore Shotshells and .45 Colt Ammunition In European Flare Guns#

$60. Czech milsurp 26.5mm flare gun another $100, including red star shell flares, totally innocuous in any ditch bag.
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Old 25-01-2014, 18:37   #314
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Re: St Lucia murder

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This is pure hysteria , if you are making these claims , back them up with facts . Where I live , it's very unlikely that any burglar will intentionally enter an occupied house. Most , > 90% of burglaries take place in daylight in unoccupied houses. armed domestic burglaries are extremely rare and I've never heard of people being " tortured "

It disgusts me that people debating this topic " parade " the spectacle of wife or daughter rape, when statistics show such events are extremely rare. It's pure " shock jock " tactics.

I'm all for a reasonable debate , but this nonsense is quite frankly sickening

Dave

Dave,
Your absolutely correct, I agree 100%. If someone is breaking in knowing your there, they aren't after your valuables. Those people you need to defend against.
The other that break in while your gone, well that's why you buy insurance
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Old 25-01-2014, 18:39   #315
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This is pure hysteria , if you are making these claims , back them up with facts . Where I live , it's very unlikely that any burglar will intentionally enter an occupied house. Most , > 90% of burglaries take place in daylight in unoccupied houses. armed domestic burglaries are extremely rare and I've never heard of people being " tortured "

It disgusts me that people debating this topic " parade " the spectacle of wife or daughter rape, when statistics show such events are extremely rare. It's pure " shock jock " tactics.

I'm all for a reasonable debate , but this nonsense is quite frankly sickening

Dave
You sound as if you have lived a very sheltered life, as is your right.
In Mexico and Latin America, it is taken for granted based on frequent sad examples that this is true. It happens also in the USA, and usually the victims are murdered so the exact sequence of events of home invasion, torture, execution must be extrapolated. But sometimes there is a survivor.

Wichita Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brad, Aaron and Jason and the two girls should have fought back, instead of "hoping for the best" like you counsel. They would have had a fighting chance at many junctures, but all five young adults seemed to have been paralyzed by fear.

I can post stories like this all night long that never appeared at all on national news, which is why you never heard of them.

I just searched "Home invasion florida torture" and came up with pages and pages of heart-rending stories. However, these are almost always confined to local reportage, due to various reasons, often including varying aspects of political correctness.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=home+in...41f3fe95b8fc92
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