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Old 24-01-2014, 04:23   #256
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by Capt'n Ricko View Post
Seems to me... the best thing would be for all cruisers to send a message to St Lucia & other Carib islands (especially St Lucia Right Now!) where police/Gov't cannot control - or won't control violent crime on cruisers...

STAY AWAY!

(Follow the Money)

after reading this whole thread...this is really the only answer right now.
(and condolences to the Pratt family)
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Old 24-01-2014, 04:25   #257
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Read and see for yourself...

A well written research paper by European authors titled "Crime in Europe and the US: Dissecting the “Reversal of Misfortunes” documents and analyzes crime rates in Europe compared to the USA. In essence, crime has continued to increase in Europe whereas crime in the USA has leveled off and has been decreasing since 1990.

The authors investigate 5 variables; demographics (fewer young males), immigration, abortion, unemployment, and incarceration.

The European authors conclude that a tougher incarceration policy would help turn the tide in Europe.

Link to paper: http://www2.dse.unibo.it/zanella/papers/crime-EP.pdf

I believe this information is appropriate for CF because it is relevant to assessing risk when cruising in Europe. Additionally, it seems like the USA is frequently stereotyped in CF as being a more violent country by posters from Europe, Australian, and New Zealand. We are also viewed negatively for having a large incarcerated population.

Even though we have a lower rate of violence crime than Europe we are better at it as the homicide rate in the USA is still higher.

Cheers!
as a bit of thread drift,re this report,it is intresting to note that reasearchers have linked the reduction of crime since 1990 in urban areas with the banning of leaded fuel!
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Old 24-01-2014, 05:33   #258
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by SaltyTanned View Post
In Rodney Bay, Marigot Bay and the Pitons boat boys will hassle you. Rodney in a northeasterly can become untenable. Marigot unless inside, and there is no room to anchor, is often very rolly while between the Pitons it is almost always rolly.

If you think these are good anchorages you should try Martinique. No yachtsman was ever murdered there. I have never heard of a boarding either. There are very secure and beautiful areas to anchor, fantastic beaches and of course the food is unequalled.

Agree!! +1 , Martinique is a lot better place , St Lucia is allready a fuked place by the gov and the locals, sorry for the word, Marigot is far away to be a idyllic spot in the island, in fact is a tourist hole, no place to anchor, full of boat boys, full of moorings. Rodney bay is disgusting, i loose 2 outboard engines there in the past, both dingys locked, the police attitude is a joke, anchor outside you risk to be smashed by a jet ski everyday, inside is just the marina and a chocolate color water surrounding the place, in one side the wealthy, in the other side Gross Ilet a depressed poor town full of crackheads and drugs. Everytime i stop in St Lucia one way or the other i got scammed, no kidding.. And for the past of 3 years we try to bypass the island all the way to bequia in the way south or Martinique in the way north , we have enough with St Lucia...
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Old 24-01-2014, 06:35   #259
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
If You want to make such a comparison, please be so sensible to to compare the EU towards USA. When You talk Europe You do include countries to the east from EU (Russia, Ukraine, Moldova etc.). What about including Mexico on Your side of the pond?

Truth is from European perspective there is not much difference, from safety point of view, between going to the US and to the Caribbean. And there are "better" and "worse" places in US and in Caribbean.
Good first point, although if you follow the link you will find for yourself which countries they used in the study. Quote

"Europe we mean Austria, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, and
the UK."

On your second point, you are just making stuff up.
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Old 24-01-2014, 06:48   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post

Read and see for yourself...

A well written research paper by European authors titled "Crime in Europe and the US: Dissecting the “Reversal of Misfortunes” documents and analyzes crime rates in Europe compared to the USA. In essence, crime has continued to increase in Europe whereas crime in the USA has leveled off and has been decreasing since 1990.

The authors investigate 5 variables; demographics (fewer young males), immigration, abortion, unemployment, and incarceration.

The European authors conclude that a tougher incarceration policy would help turn the tide in Europe.

Link to paper: http://www2.dse.unibo.it/zanella/papers/crime-EP.pdf

I believe this information is appropriate for CF because it is relevant to assessing risk when cruising in Europe. Additionally, it seems like the USA is frequently stereotyped in CF as being a more violent country by posters from Europe, Australian, and New Zealand. We are also viewed negatively for having a large incarcerated population.

Even though we have a lower rate of violence crime than Europe we are better at it as the homicide rate in the USA is still higher.

Cheers!
That " paper" has received much more exposure in the US by the pro gun advocate lobby and the headline graph is much quoted

but it been widely disparaged on two grounds. One it does not reflect official Eurostat ( we have a dedicated statistics quango) figures which show crime falling ( similar to the US )

Secondly crime comparison figures are notoriously hard to compare as the reporting processes , what constitutes a crime etc are not even consistent across Europe , never mind comparing Europe and the US. Hence its factually impossible to use such crime statistics.

About the only statistics that can be used are very specific crimes like rape ( which suffers from under reporting ) homicides and things like auto theft. On all these metrics the US does not come out so good.

Of more " softer " statistics. Simple or even complex comparisons cannot be made as the metrics have utterly different base methods.

All you can do is use say the homicide rate , or a specific reported single crime type ( death being a good one ) hence the US is 4 times more violent then Europe !!!! Suggesting that increased incarceration and guns while amusing side debates are not germane to reducing violent death. !!!

Ah statistics

Dave
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Old 24-01-2014, 06:51   #261
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pirate Re: St Lucia murder

A sad thread.. someone died brutally.. but these always end up making me smile.. every time its ends up with a load of statistical crap being bounced back and forth about the US and Europe...
A ton of useless BS spouted by folk trying to score points and establish superiority...
Stupid comments like 'Last time a cruiser was murdered in Miami, Times Square.. wherever..' is about as useful as 'I'll take my Mossberg..'
The situation is simple.. every now and then cruisers are hit by crime.. every where in the world.. so the solution is simple..
Pay yer money and take your chances... or stay away...
Look on cruising as a form of War Zone Tourism... the weather and sea can kill you getting there.. and the bugs and virus's can kill you when you arrive... the locals are a minor threat in comparison..
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Old 24-01-2014, 06:53   #262
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
A sad thread.. someone died brutally.. but these always end up making me smile.. every time its ends up with a load of statistical crap being bounced back and forth about the US and Europe...
A ton of useless BS spouted by folk trying to score points and establish superiority...
Stupid comments like 'Last time a cruiser was murdered in Miami, Times Square.. wherever..' is about as useful as 'I'll take my Mossberg..'
The situation is simple.. every now and then cruisers are hit by crime.. every where in the world.. so the solution is simple..
Pay yer money and take your chances... or stay away...
Look on cruising as a form of War Zone Tourism... the weather and sea can kill you getting there.. and the bugs and virus's can kill you when you arrive... the locals are a minor threat in comparison..
Of course the statistics debate is stupid , but as we practically powerless to do anything practical we start throwing the rule book around instead.

!!!!!
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Old 24-01-2014, 06:58   #263
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Re: St Lucia murder

Terrible incident.

I do not see what bashing a particular country has to do with it. Contrary to what some people here like to believe, the Southern Carribean is NOT worst off than the rest of the Carribean.

V.I. homicide rate still among world's highest - News - Virgin Islands Daily News

I could gather homicide statistics all day, as I have done in previous such threads but it is rather pointless, people don't pay attention to numbers.

Most of the world is third world. Stay alert, be aware of your surroundings. Analyze risk at moorings and anchorages and if you are not comfortable move to a different one.
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Old 24-01-2014, 07:01   #264
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by DGH View Post
Shocking occurrence. So sad and my condolences to his widow and family. Speaking of the southern Caribbean area, how does Grenada compare with St Lucia for security, etc.
Grenada FEELS much safer. It probably is as well. I've spent several months in both St Lucia and Grenada and I am much more comfortable in Grenada. Yes you'll still run the risk of having your dinghy stolen but you don't get hassled by boat boys and there is a big cruiser-community looking out for each other.
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Old 24-01-2014, 07:02   #265
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
That " paper" has received much more exposure in the US by the pro gun advocate lobby and the headline graph is much quoted

but it been widely disparaged on two grounds. One it does not reflect official Eurostat ( we have a dedicated statistics quango) figures which show crime falling ( similar to the US )

Secondly crime comparison figures are notoriously hard to compare as the reporting processes , what constitutes a crime etc are not even consistent across Europe , never mind comparing Europe and the US. Hence its factually impossible to use such crime statistics.

About the only statistics that can be used are very specific crimes like rape ( which suffers from under reporting ) homicides and things like auto theft. On all these metrics the US does not come out so good.

Of more " softer " statistics. Simple or even complex comparisons cannot be made as the metrics have utterly different base methods.

All you can do is use say the homicide rate , or a specific reported single crime type ( death being a good one ) hence the US is 4 times more violent then Europe !!!! Suggesting that increased incarceration and guns while amusing side debates are not germane to reducing violent death. !!!

Ah statistics

Dave
The usual, muddy the water, squid ink, pop smoke. A litany of unsupported statements.

They, European researchers worked the problem to make apples-to-apples comparisons and can support their conclusions with traceable data. In fact, they ghost your comments in the paper.
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Old 24-01-2014, 07:22   #266
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
A sad thread.. someone died brutally.. but these always end up making me smile.. every time its ends up with a load of statistical crap being bounced back and forth about the US and Europe...
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]A ton of useless BS spouted by folk trying to score points and establish superiority...
isn't that the turth
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Old 24-01-2014, 07:24   #267
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Grenada FEELS much safer. you don't get hassled by boat boys and there is a big cruiser-community looking out for each other.
A very proactive cruiser community.

Last year just before carnival a swimmer boarded about 3 boats one night. Because of carnival a lot of boats would be getting drunk on shore... Well the crews anyway... So we asked on the VHF Radio Net for volunteers to patrol the anchorage for a few nights, each to do one hour of patrolling with torches especially between the beach and the closest boats.

Well we were inundated with folks volunteering!

The anchorage was safe and we all had a great time dancing in the streets.

It worked becasue we only did it for a couple of nights. But the effect may have been for much longer.
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Old 24-01-2014, 08:06   #268
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by Travis McGee View Post
On the guns/no guns point: you can order a legal "non-firearm" (according to the ATF) sub-caliber insert for a 26.5mm flare gun that accepts either a .410 shotgun shell or a 45 Long Colt caliber pistol round. The insert and a military surplus flare gun and a box of 20 cartridges will set you back around $200. The insert is innocuous looking and can be kept with spare parts etc. Just a thought, YMMV.

Also, you can purchase slingshots similar to the old "wrist rockets" that are adapted to fire standard archery arrows. These are better than spear guns which are A. illegal many places and B. extremely slow to cock or C. the bands will quickly degrade if left cocked and ready. The arrow-launching slingshot is very compact and also innocuous and can be kept in the cockpit or below

You can also purchase a decent compound bow with an easy pull for under $200, even cheaper at any pawnshop. At cockpit distances, a 4-bladed hunting arrowhead can go a long way to convincing a machete-armed thug to go swimming before he is impaled. This is only after a hostile boarder has put his feet on your boat: it's not for brandishing around "boat boys."

You can buy machetes for about $20 that are also handy around the cockpit. Better than bare hands against somebody boarding your boat. A brandished machete communicates itself without words. A small, light, homemade plywood shield for your off-hand prevents "defensive wounds" while your dominant hand holds the machete. Both shield and machete can be kept in the cockpit, be creative. A laminated shield could even sandwich Kevlar cloth between two thin "door skin" plywood panels to give protection against pistol rounds, if you wish to take it that far.

Channeling hostile boarders into an expected location for boarding also helps. My 48' steel cutter has high freeboard and lifelines, but a sugar-scoop transom. 95% of the time, this is where boarders will board. My center-cockpit cutter's aft-cabin (where I sleep) is just ahead of the open swim platform transom. This aft bulkhead has a porthole at "knee height" for a boarder. Nobody can get aboard without my hearing and feeling it. Heavy monofilament fishing line across the platform at ankle height is nearly invisible and can trigger a simple Rube Goldberg alarm.

It helps a lot if you can anticipate a boarder's actions and channel them into terrain that favors the defense. 95% of the time, boarders will choose the easy, obvious place to come aboard. Turn it into a trap.

Where legal, practicing archery at anchor with a fishing-spool on your bow to retrieve arrows is great fun and goes a long way to convince predators to try an easier target.
Much good advice here , albeit not for everyone (requires use of best weapon - own brain, to generate some forethought).

I would only add 4 things:

1) a spear! - easy to diy something onto a boathook that could be fitted when needed, or simply might be.......not for throwing!, extra range useful, especially when folks are channelled (i.e. through a companionway).

2) a MarkJ style hatch (am surprised that a few don't seem to understand how it works and is not meant to be the ultimate defence against a sustained attack by Ninja trained Nuns, or whatever ).

3) if somewhere that you are uncomfortable, then stand an anchor watch! - a brave man / group who tries to force an opposed boarding against someone (or several, folks now awake) holding a machete......or suicidal.

4) learn the local lingo for "F#ck off" .
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Old 24-01-2014, 08:07   #269
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The usual, muddy the water, squid ink, pop smoke. A litany of unsupported statements.

They, European researchers worked the problem to make apples-to-apples comparisons and can support their conclusions with traceable data. In fact, they ghost your comments in the paper.
They're wrong I right its the Internet , next
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Old 24-01-2014, 08:29   #270
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Re: St Lucia murder

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Much good advice here , albeit not for everyone (requires use of best weapon - own brain, to generate some forethought).

I would only add 4 things:

1) a spear! - easy to diy something onto a boathook that could be fitted when needed, or simply might be.......not for throwing!, extra range useful, especially when folks are channelled (i.e. through a companionway).

2) a MarkJ style hatch (am surprised that a few don't seem to understand how it works and is not meant to be the ultimate defence against a sustained attack by Ninja trained Nuns, or whatever ).

3) if somewhere that you are uncomfortable, then stand an anchor watch! - a brave man / group who tries to force an opposed boarding against someone (or several, folks now awake) holding a machete......or suicidal.

4) learn the local lingo for "F#ck off" .
Yes, those are all also very good ideas.
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