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Old 09-09-2006, 07:05   #1
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St John to Savannah Delivery Times?

I have a situation and really need help so bear with me. Had my 35 foot boat delivered from St John (usvi) to Savannah Ga. How long ( days) trip is this if there was moderate to calm winds (5 to 15) , about? Not sure how far it actually in in miles ?
The deal sounded great, 2 persons, $4000 plus provisions and a couple days rigging the boat before leaving, maybe a day to provision.
They had a water pump problem, rebuilt it twice, and a 1/2 day problem
with the rigging. and a 3 day layover in the Bahamas waiting for Earnesto to pass.. do they get sailing days for that ?
Well 7 weeks later !!! and a bill for $11,248 !! thats right ! Nuts hu?
How much would $ provsions be? how long actually sailing days, if something breaks do they get paid for the day when fixing it or just get paid for the job time to fix it?
HELP PLEASE.. I had paid them $4000 up front before leaving St John and sent an addtional $ 700 and $500 (to Dom Rep and Exum) as they where going. What to do now ??? THANK YOU ... Richard
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Old 09-09-2006, 07:10   #2
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New and need HELP !

Not sure where is best to post this I have a situation and really need help so bear with me. Had my 35 foot boat delivered from St John (usvi) to Savannah Ga. How long ( days) trip is this if there was moderate to calm winds (5 to 15) , about? Not sure how far it actually in in miles ?
The deal sounded great, 2 persons, $4000 plus provisions and a couple days rigging the boat before leaving, maybe a day to provision.
They had a water pump problem, rebuilt it twice, and a 1/2 day problem
with the rigging. and a 3 day layover in the Bahamas waiting for Earnesto to pass.. do they get sailing days for that ?
Well 7 weeks later !!! and a bill for $11,248 !! thats right ! Nuts hu?
How much would $ provsions be? how long actually sailing days, if something breaks do they get paid for the day when fixing it or just get paid for the job time to fix it?
HELP PLEASE.. I had paid them $4000 up front before leaving St John and sent an addtional $ 700 and $500 (to Dom Rep and Exum) as they where going. What to do now ??? THANK YOU ... Richard
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Old 09-09-2006, 07:46   #3
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Richard,

The sailing distance between St. John, USVI and Savannah, GA depends upon the route chosen. Assuming a more-or-less direct route along the north shores of St. Thomas, Puerto Rico, the D.R., then a turn up towards the outer Bahamas to, say, Mayaguana, then up through the Bahamas, up the Gulf Stream aways, and turn in at Savannah. Figure about 1,375 nautical miles total trip distance.

The time to cover this distance in a 35' vessel depends on a variety of factors, including the boat's sailing ability, crew, weather, stops, breakdowns, etc. If everything goes well, and if you figure about 110 miles per day made good, this would take about 12.5 sailing days. A larger, faster vessel would do it in 10 sailing days or so, everything going well. So, you might estimate that for your boat 12-15 days might be "normal".

As to the extra costs for breakdowns, layovers, etc., that very much depends on what you have negotiated with the delivery crew. Normally, extra time which is a result of breakdowns or weather IS counted at the daily rate, just as if the boat were sailing. After all, you've got to reimburse the crew for their time (opportunity costs)....if they weren't tied up delivering your boat, the theory is, they could be delivering another boat or otherwise earning income. Really doesn't matter if they're sitting in port awaiting the passage of a hurricane, or actually out on the briney deep.

So, depending on what your agreement(s) were at the beginning, you may well be stuck for the amount billed. Only suggestion I'd have is:

(1) discuss the details of the bill amicably with the delivery crew, starting from the position that you want to be reasonable and, of course, and reimburse them for their time and expenses; and

(2) consider this a learning experience. If you ever do this again, you'll have a better idea of the factors involved, and will get agreements in advance re: contingencies, in writing.

Welcome to the wonderful world of boating, where EVERYTHING is going to cost more than you'd though or hoped :-)

Good luck,

Bill
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Old 09-09-2006, 08:11   #4
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I did nearly the same delivery last spring with a crew of 3 on a Lagoon 37. We spent $600 on food and drink. We did the crossing in 15 days to Jacksonville.
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Old 09-09-2006, 08:49   #5
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Thanks

Thanks Bill, well Iv'e had this boat fro 7 years and 2 others over the past 18... but never dealt with a delivery crew before... this guy just saw me coming..and by the way hasn't gotten any more money since the 5200..other replys bring provision costs for a crew of 3 to a max of around $15 per day per person..with a max of $20 Thanx ag
Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors
Richard,

The sailing distance between St. John, USVI and Savannah, GA depends upon the route chosen. Assuming a more-or-less direct route along the north shores of St. Thomas, Puerto Rico, the D.R., then a turn up towards the outer Bahamas to, say, Mayaguana, then up through the Bahamas, up the Gulf Stream aways, and turn in at Savannah. Figure about 1,375 nautical miles total trip distance.

The time to cover this distance in a 35' vessel depends on a variety of factors, including the boat's sailing ability, crew, weather, stops, breakdowns, etc. If everything goes well, and if you figure about 110 miles per day made good, this would take about 12.5 sailing days. A larger, faster vessel would do it in 10 sailing days or so, everything going well. So, you might estimate that for your boat 12-15 days might be "normal".

As to the extra costs for breakdowns, layovers, etc., that very much depends on what you have negotiated with the delivery crew. Normally, extra time which is a result of breakdowns or weather IS counted at the daily rate, just as if the boat were sailing. After all, you've got to reimburse the crew for their time (opportunity costs)....if they weren't tied up delivering your boat, the theory is, they could be delivering another boat or otherwise earning income. Really doesn't matter if they're sitting in port awaiting the passage of a hurricane, or actually out on the briney deep.

So, depending on what your agreement(s) were at the beginning, you may well be stuck for the amount billed. Only suggestion I'd have is:

(1) discuss the details of the bill amicably with the delivery crew, starting from the position that you want to be reasonable and, of course, and reimburse them for their time and expenses; and

(2) consider this a learning experience. If you ever do this again, you'll have a better idea of the factors involved, and will get agreements in advance re: contingencies, in writing.

Welcome to the wonderful world of boating, where EVERYTHING is going to cost more than you'd though or hoped :-)

Good luck,

Bill
S/V Born Free
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Old 09-09-2006, 08:52   #6
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Thanks for #'s

Quote:
Originally Posted by never monday
I did nearly the same delivery last spring with a crew of 3 on a Lagoon 37. We spent $600 on food and drink. We did the crossing in 15 days to Jacksonville.
Thanx Pat... those figures are a great help... first time in 18 years I had to deal with a delivery crew... physical problems

Appreciated Richard
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Old 09-09-2006, 15:34   #7
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Tough situation, Richard. Did you sign any type of agreement? If so, what did it say regarding your questions above?

You got a quote of $4000 plus provisions and 2 days rigging. How many days sailing did that include? (what is their daily rate?)

I think quoting $4000 and then charging $11K is a bit out of whack. As far as provisions go, get an itemized bill. As far as everything goes... get complete and total itemization before you pay any money at all.

Do you have posession of your boat now? Have they released it to you?
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Old 09-09-2006, 16:23   #8
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Aloha Alberg,
Welcome aboard! I'm certain someone here can answer your question buy I can't. Hope it works out to your benefit.
Kind Regards,
JohnL
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Old 09-09-2006, 16:58   #9
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Thank you, well they claim 27... ha.. did a little island hopping and party I guess. I do have the boat and am trying to sort things out before
any more money passes. The 2 of them left on 7/22 and had "perfect" conditions right before Hurricane Chris came along, BUT the were in the Dom. Rep. for 11 days and missed the window. He claims the layover was due to an old infection in the knee that reappeared after a month so could not continue. He tried to charge me 1,729 for the time there !! He's crazy. The had 2 days of fixing stuff, At any rate I figure they only get 14 days, plus for repairs, It's not my fault they missed the window before Chris hanging in the D.R. and had to spend 3 in the Bahamas waiting for for Earnesto to pass ! Before the left St John, they claim
5 days to rig and provision ( more party time I guess). The had to put the boom on, sails and dodger ect, take a ships inventory and go over the rigging and check all... two people can do that in 3 days easy, nothing at that time had to be fixed. SO all told maybe 19 days at the most, the two are $300 a day ( is that normal)?
I was told that $15 a person per day is correct for provisions? any opinion on that? Maybe they ate steak every night !! Any and all insite would be great.
Anyhow 3 boats over the past 18 years and have never had to deal with delivery crew, health problems forced me into this. Thanks again
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:43   #10
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Hi Alberg,

Sorry to hear of your experiences but is certainly sounds like the services and price you expected and the delivery mob expected are far apart.

I'm not a lawyer but suggest you get your boat back in your hot little hands before getting into an argument with these guys. Possession being 7/10th of the law etc.

To answer your Q, VI to Savannah is approximately 1200 miles.
You know how many miles you'd normally cover in a day under sail and or motor. In a 35 footer averaging say 6 knots the 1200 miles comes out at 200 hours at sea - say 8/9 days with nothing in the bag for emergencies.

If they were expected to sail in September my passage planner quotes an average of only 5 knots - so it goes up to 10 days non stop at sea + emergency time.

IMHO it would be about right to be paying $2000 per person for that period of possibly 2 weeks. But the issue is what was agreed about time added due to foul weather - or boat breakages.

With respsect - I'd suggest you would not want them to beat the sh*t out of your boat and sail o if the weather was really bad? And would you really expect them to not be paid whilst they waited around for the weather to get better?

Same question really on the breakages which also held them up. Should they pay if their time is taken up fixing your boat?

I don't think so.

I'm sure you would not have let them go without something in writing defining all these eventualities. Check it out and if they are trying it on (once you've got your boat bacK) and if they are, then do not pay.

But if the terms and conditions do allow them to charge for time due to bad weather or breakages, then you might not have any option but to pay up.

The key is those terms that presumably were agreed before you engaged them. You did get something in writing - didn't you?

Good luck

JOHN
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:28   #11
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Richard - I think John covered most things - correctly, I might add. Certainly you should check your contract. You contracted (verbally or written) with the captain to deliver your boat. $4000 for ten days is about correct (typically $300/$100 USD per day for captain/crew(1) respectively). Provisions, fuel, parts, insurance are all extra.

As with any passage, stuff happens - especially with a just purchased boat. You are obligated to pay for all those days; time at sea, ashore waiting out a storm, repairing, reprovisioning, etc. You are lucky that the captain/crew were able to make those repairs themselves - otherwise they would have had to possibly contract with a tow service (you don't EVEN wanna know what they charge-unless you had a contract with one of the services: Vessel Assist/BoatUS), a repair person(s) (typically $60 to $90 per hour USD), plus you would still be required to pay the day rate and keep of the crew.

If you expected the delivery crew to make perfect time without any problem, in the middle of hurricane season ... well, I think that NOW, you know better. Do I think they overcharged - probably not. Are you obligated to pay - yeah, I think that you are.

Hindsight is 20-20. And, the following isn't really directed at you (there isn't much you can do at this point), but more for those that might be considering using a delivery service in the future.

For those that are considering using a delivery service, there are some basic things that you MUST do prior to SIGNING A CONTRACT.

1. Investigate the captain (letters of reference-recent, a background check, and find out if s/he has sailed/traveled that route before, and if s/he has worked with that particular crew before.
2. Make damn sure that the boat you are turning over to them is in perfect working order (that means TESTED, not a one hour sea-trial). That basic items are on the boat:
a. Food prep and eating supplies
b. Sanitary & linen items: toilet paper, towels, bedding, cleaning supplies
c. Critical spare parts and the tools to replace them: This would include:
1. Water pump impeller
2. Fuel filters (several of each type)
3. Oil and Xmission fluid (if diff.)
4. Engine manual or, at the very min., instructions for bleeding (if diesel) and the proper wrenches to do that
5. Misc. hoses and fittings
6. Sailing hardware (shackles, blocks, line, sail repair kit
7. Ground tackle (EXTRA if during Hurricane season)

That is not a complete list, but you get a good idea. MOST delivery captains will have a list of things they will want on the boat prior to their taking charge. Or, you can tell them to take care of it - but don't be surprised at the cost.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:22   #12
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I am going to call that a rip off based on some of my own delivery experience.

I delivered a 36' yacht from Bridgeport, CT to Forteleza Brazil. The delivery had us pass thru the beginning of Hurrcane Emily and we had to set up the vessel for offshore as it was used for coastal.

I had one other crew so the two of did the delivery with stops in Bermuda... we had to do some repairs on the autopilot, Antigua, Grenada, Trinidad, Surinam.

The owner paid for all provisions and return AF, me to NYC and Rog to Antigua where he lives. My recollection is that the bill for this 6 week delivery aside from the air far was something like $11,000 and I supplied a good deal of my own "safety gear.

So 11K for a downwind sail from USVI sounds like a rip off to me. I have also done a Antigua to NY delivery of a Stevens 50 with stops in the Bahamas, FL, SC Altantic City... That trip was 2 weeks.

Something is wrong with that.... but maybe prices are considerable higher these days??

Jef
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Old 10-09-2006, 17:34   #13
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I'm leaning toward what Jef says as well, although the most important thing here is your agreement (written) as well as an itemized bill. Some charges might be warranted. Some might not.
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Old 10-09-2006, 18:55   #14
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all was covered

Thanks for the input,,, All was together as far as part and repair stuff on board, I'v had Arima 6 years, just never delt with a delivery. My main disturbance was when The left St john they had a wonderful almost perfect over 3 week window for the trip. But claimed to have old injury problems that reoccured when they hit the D.R. . They laid over there for 11 days, missing the window that was planned for and wanting to bill me
$1729 ! 470 for medical, 654 for restaurants, 250 for a motorcycle !! Lets get real here! They srewed around rather than doing the job during pretty ideal conditions there for causing problems. By the time they left the D.R. Chriss had gone by and sucked all the wind, they pushed the motor and burnt up 2 inpellers, .. too much party and not enough work, Island hopping while I'm awaiting the boat to arrive to list it with a broker.
The guy has done litterly hundreds of deliveries but seems he got romantically involved with his mate and so the story goes on. I have the boat now and am thru all this sites generous help tryng to determine just how much I am actually going to pay him for the trip considering his slackness on the agreement.
He has lots of "stories" about becauses and only ifs, and lots of excuses that don't match up. It will come to an end soon.
Thanks to all for the input appreciated. Richard
Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Elusive
Richard - I think John covered most things - correctly, I might add. Certainly you should check your contract. You contracted (verbally or written) with the captain to deliver your boat. $4000 for ten days is about correct (typically $300/$100 USD per day for captain/crew(1) respectively). Provisions, fuel, parts, insurance are all extra.

As with any passage, stuff happens - especially with a just purchased boat. You are obligated to pay for all those days; time at sea, ashore waiting out a storm, repairing, reprovisioning, etc. You are lucky that the captain/crew were able to make those repairs themselves - otherwise they would have had to possibly contract with a tow service (you don't EVEN wanna know what they charge-unless you had a contract with one of the services: Vessel Assist/BoatUS), a repair person(s) (typically $60 to $90 per hour USD), plus you would still be required to pay the day rate and keep of the crew.

If you expected the delivery crew to make perfect time without any problem, in the middle of hurricane season ... well, I think that NOW, you know better. Do I think they overcharged - probably not. Are you obligated to pay - yeah, I think that you are.

Hindsight is 20-20. And, the following isn't really directed at you (there isn't much you can do at this point), but more for those that might be considering using a delivery service in the future.

For those that are considering using a delivery service, there are some basic things that you MUST do prior to SIGNING A CONTRACT.

1. Investigate the captain (letters of reference-recent, a background check, and find out if s/he has sailed/traveled that route before, and if s/he has worked with that particular crew before.
2. Make damn sure that the boat you are turning over to them is in perfect working order (that means TESTED, not a one hour sea-trial). That basic items are on the boat:
a. Food prep and eating supplies
b. Sanitary & linen items: toilet paper, towels, bedding, cleaning supplies
c. Critical spare parts and the tools to replace them: This would include:
1. Water pump impeller
2. Fuel filters (several of each type)
3. Oil and Xmission fluid (if diff.)
4. Engine manual or, at the very min., instructions for bleeding (if diesel) and the proper wrenches to do that
5. Misc. hoses and fittings
6. Sailing hardware (shackles, blocks, line, sail repair kit
7. Ground tackle (EXTRA if during Hurricane season)

That is not a complete list, but you get a good idea. MOST delivery captains will have a list of things they will want on the boat prior to their taking charge. Or, you can tell them to take care of it - but don't be surprised at the cost.
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Old 11-09-2006, 12:45   #15
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The agreement

Sean, The whole deal was verbal, known this guy for 10 years and he has done the route probably 20 times at minumim. He's been sailing blue waters for about 20 years... they whole thing just got out of hand... think he thinks I'm rich or smething !! ha!
Anyhow...I look at it this way.. he has $5200 of mine and is going to have to wait on me to figure out if and how much more he gets. "HE" has no agreement to hold me to !! Am I right or wrong there ... he only has the verbal which was $4k plus provisions and fuel and repair/service parts.
Thanks for the input much appreciated Richard


Quote:
Originally Posted by ssullivan
I'm leaning toward what Jef says as well, although the most important thing here is your agreement (written) as well as an itemized bill. Some charges might be warranted. Some might not.
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