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Old 30-07-2013, 04:49   #121
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
You could use a fog deterrent plus a fire alarm... this would attract everyone instantly.

Security fog protection with a fog cannon, smoke cannon or fog generator -

Personally I don't want to count on others to rescue me. Once an intruder is on a boat, that's a very dangerous situation.
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Old 30-07-2013, 04:52   #122
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Re: Security

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Knowing strengths and weaknesses is one thing...actually doing something about them can transform you from one group to another.

Ultimately it's the mind that keeps you in one group or moves you to another.... everything else basically essentially falls into tactics and tools.

I think reality has to be part of one's "mind." A 67-year old single female. That's a REALITY that can't be thought away.

I like that hatchway gate. I'd also like to install one on the inside of the forward hatch so it could be left open safely.
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:06   #123
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I think reality has to be part of one's "mind." A 67-year old single female. That's a REALITY that can't be thought away.

I like that hatchway gate. I'd also like to install one on the inside of the forward hatch so it could be left open safely.
As long as you can think and breath...that's where tactics and tools are your friends.

Find the ones that work for you in your "most likely" situations.

One of the best has already been described...avoid areas and/or times where you are most vulnerable. No different than when you are ashore.

The gate is also a nice tactic for some vessels....hard to do on others.

But there are tools and tactics that are great equalizers for mobility and strength...the question is are you willing to use them...
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:19   #124
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
As long as you can think and breath...that's where tactics and tools are your friends.

Find the ones that work for you in your "most likely" situations.

One of the best has already been described...avoid areas and/or times where you are most vulnerable. No different than when you are ashore.

The gate is also a nice tactic for some vessels....hard to do on others.

But there are tools and tactics that are great equalizers for mobility and strength...the question is are you willing to use them...

Whatever. As I say, I knew someone who considered himself armed and ready but who was still -- literally -- murdered in his bed. Just because someone *believes* something is a solution doesn't necessarily make it one.

And we've discussed before the wisdom of having certain items on one's boat in a foreign country.

I would REALLY appreciate knowing where that companionway grid is available. I've searched on line and can't find it.
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:27   #125
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Whatever. As I say, I knew someone who considered himself armed and ready but who was still -- literally -- murdered in his bed. Just because someone *believes* something is a solution doesn't necessarily make it one.

And we've discussed before the wisdom of having certain items on one's boat in a foreign country.

I would REALLY appreciate knowing where that companionway grid is available. I've searched on line and can't find it.
He had the tools but not the tactics...like boating you need more than just the boat or knowledge...you need both.

Wisdom is a funny word...2 different people can go through life doing things completely different and still be considered "wise" by their family and friends.

Go to any place that makes T-Tops or other marine metal fabrication and tell them what you want. I would want it out of aluminum for weight and corrosion...but if you don't mind the weight or a little rust than any welding place could make you up one. Doubt any "off the shelf" stuff would work well as there's just too many variables...maybe adjustable bars for say basement windows...but then interior fastening would be an issue...best if it just slides in the tracks and one point of locking (especially for emergency escape).

MarkJ said have one made up...so I'm assuming he had his fabricated...not "bought off the shelf".
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:38   #126
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
He had the tools but not the tactics...like boating you need more than just the boat or knowledge...you need both.

Wisdom is a funny word...2 different people can go through life doing things completely different and still be considered "wise" by their family and friends.

Go to any place that makes T-Tops or other marine metal fabrication and tell them what you want. I would want it out of aluminum for weight and corrosion...but if you don't mind the weight or a little rust than any welding place could make you up one. Doubt any "off the shelf" stuff would work well as there's just too many variables...maybe adjustable bars for say basement windows...but then interior fastening would be an issue...best if it just slides in the tracks and one point of locking (especially for emergency escape).

Really? You know this man and his situation? That's amazing!

I've lived with window gates before. Very often there are sites on line that make custom pieces. If there's a site on line, I would like to know about it. For instance, there is a site online that makes carefully-fitted vertically swinging doors for the companionway. I have a pair of them. IMO if someone can make that online they could deal with making a security grid.

I know a very good fabrication shop, by the way, and have had several things for my boat either made or modified there. I'm still asking about an online site.

The grate over the forward hatch would have to be unlockable from the inside as it is also an emergency exit.

I often have children on my boat.

Awakening from a sound sleep to an immediate personal threat is something many can speculate about but which few have experienced, especially in a small space.

You seem to have an assumption that I have not carefully considered this particular problem. I have, and IMO *my* best first option is to keep an intruder out of the cabin entirely.

IMO that would be both a tool and a tactic. It is what I'm asking about, and I'm asking SPECIFICALLY if anyone knows a site online that makes these grids.
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:42   #127
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I would REALLY appreciate knowing where that companionway grid is available. I've searched on line and can't find it.
I think MarkJ had it custom made - IIRC not wildly expensive. I guess not available off the shelf at West Marine because every companionway different.........and means that many folks put something like that into the category marked "too difficult". IMO the equivalent well within the scope of DIY. Of course for those with double patio doors probably need a roller shutter .

Won't of course stop a determined intruder, but will wake "you" up as they try and bust through - and then they need to get through a choke point (one at a time) into an unfamiliar and hostile environment (how hostile is up you to decide, both before and at the time - with no guns involved even a pointy stick and some determination would suffice).......and the good news with a grill is that if someone is still trying to force their way in when they know you are awake (and likely telling 'em to eff orf ) then you know what level of force to be using when you can. Everything.

Part of the problem when dealing with a threat is knowing when to step up the response from verbal defence to physical attack (and on that as soon as possible is better (and ideally before it is fully expected), but the problem being that you can't do that to everyone just on the off chance! (not for polite reasons, but for legal reasons and because stacking up bodies won't me much of a vacation ), and by the time that their intentions are clear it may be later than ideal for "you"......having a grill or locking the hatch solves that problem. as well as the problem of being woken up by an intruder standing over you. Even Chuck Norris would struggle with that.....especially if the intruder did not bother waking you up........

The good news is that a grill can be used with a gun , indeed it makes the gun far more useful - as you are not asleep when it needs to be fired.


BTW am still struggling with the Sheep and Sheepdog analogy, to me just seems simplistic self-serving ego stroking for those who think they are "special" - or have spent a lifetime being told they are. Some folks like being told what to do or need permission, approval and validation from others, especially sheepdogs. For me the world (and people) are a tad more complex than Facebook level dribble - but obviously that is a YMMV thing.
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:45   #128
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Re: Security

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Funny thing is.. the few times I have been boarded without permission and woken up to pounding on my hatchway the buga's have been in a uniform of some kind...
Boatman:

I think if you spray them with wasp spray they may go away....
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:52   #129
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pirate Re: Security

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Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
Boatman:

I think if you spray them with wasp spray they may go away....
Obviously never met UK customs/CG.... their timing is impeccable... always catch me with my pants down
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:55   #130
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Re: Security

[QUOTE=David_Old_Jersey;1297354]I think MarkJ had it custom made - IIRC not wildly expensive. I guess not available off the shelf at West Marine because every companionway different.........and means that many folks put something like that into the category marked "too difficult". IMO the equivalent well within the scope of DIY. Of course for those with double patio doors probably need a roller shutter .

Won't of course stop a determined intruder, but will wake "you" up as they try and bust through - and then they need to get through a choke point (one at a time) into an unfamiliar and hostile environment (how hostile is up you to decide, both before and at the time - with no guns involved even a pointy stick and some determination would suffice).......and the good news with a grill is that if someone is still trying to force their way in when they know you are awake (and likely telling 'em to eff orf ) then you know what level of force to be using when you can. Everything.

Part of the problem when dealing with a threat is knowing when to step up the response from verbal defence to physical attack (and on that as soon as possible is better (and ideally before it is fully expected), but the problem being that you can't do that to everyone just on the off chance! (not for polite reasons, but for legal reasons and because stacking up bodies won't me much of a vacation ), and by the time that their intentions are clear it may be later than ideal for "you"......having a grill or locking the hatch solves that problem. as well as the problem of being woken up by an intruder standing over you. Even Chuck Norris would struggle with that.....especially if the intruder did not bother waking you up........

The good news is that a grill can be used with a gun , indeed it makes the gun far more useful - as you are not asleep when it needs to be fired.


Exactly my thoughts, although personally i will not have a loaded gun -- or in fact a gun -- on my boat. I'm NOT going to criticize others but that's not the solution for me. And of course, NO, you can't go in and buy this grid off the shelf in West Marine. I don't think anyone has suggested that.

BUT ...

MAYBE THERE'S A WEBSITE WHERE SOMEONE MAKES THESE THINGS.

That would give me -- MORE OPTIONS.

Don't know how I can make it any clearer!

This is running through my mind because the photo of the thing was good enough to use for ... advertising.
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Old 30-07-2013, 05:57   #131
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Personally I don't want to count on others to rescue me. Once an intruder is on a boat, that's a very dangerous situation.
It's not about attracting attention of others. It is all about disabling the intruder. What you can't see - you can't get. Imagine a boat filled with smoke within seconds. Plus alarm gone crazy, lights and flashes. Even if the attacker is extremely determined, he simply won't be able to continue - he doesn't see a thing.

I really don't get the whole drama of "security". OK, pro grade system are big bucks, but there are cheap mass market solutions available too, that can be used. Everyone is discussing how ugly it is to wake up to a gun in your face and intruder in the boat, but WHY do that? A simple alarm system and custom made security enchancements for hatches will never allow any intruder unnoticed. By the time he even tries to get in, whole anchorage will wake up, and even police can be automatically notified and radio message broadcasted if needed. It really amazes me how people can discuss fighting threats and even killing intruders, when it is much easier and more effective to deter and avoid. OK, OK, not everybody can afford "big" toys, but cheap stuff and some brains and DIY skills can make your boat a fortress. You simply will NEVER have to "fight a wolf" - because there won't be a wolf to fight.
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Old 30-07-2013, 06:09   #132
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Wow, my mailbox is full and the thread alive; I finally managed to get a thread like this to make people think

If any reader thinks that using the word "sheep" is to ridicule then know this is not so. Read my post with the analogy again because it really isn't. I agree the word "sheeple" should not be associated with the analogy and is used to ridicule; it's why I don't use it.

I hope Don now understands how the wolf selects it's prey in an anchorage. Look at your own boat next time anchored out and imagine what a wolf would think about it. Make it tougher to take your gear and to enter your cabin. When I look around an anchorage I know I'm not going to have trouble other than may be to help those who do.

There is something that is sure to get you in serious trouble. I see this again and again and a very good friend got murdered in his boat because of it, with his boat, his identity and all his belongings taken. Luckily, this wolf used his credit card, could be tracked down and arrested and is now rotting in a Panama jail. He was not a local, he was another cruiser! So beware, there are wolf cruisers too.
Anyway, this thing that gets you into trouble is to socialize with local shady characters like dope dealers, pimps, gangs and so on, the list is long. If you really need to buy a joint, which ai would ot advice to do at all, then make it a cold business transaction, keep distance and get out. Never go have a drink with these characters or even invite them aboard. Same for "cruisers" who seem to run something locally.

I read the comments about sheepdog wannabees and it's true. I recently watched some episodes of Doomsday Preppers and most of them are nutcases really and that has nothing to do with sheepdogs either. It is living in a fantasy. As much as sheep don't really like sheepdogs and hate wolves, they all go to movies about them and some loose reality and think they have become Dirty Harry or something. I too have seen these types hanging at bars and explaining how many guns they have. They do exactly the opposite of a sheepdog, who would not even be there drinking that much, talking so loud, telling what treasure there is to get from him. It is a sign of uncertainty and fear and the stupid idea that talk like that will keep the wolves away. But the wolf is not drunk and not impressed by it at all; only needs to know which is your boat.

You don't need to be a sheepdog to secure your dinghy and put the security grate in the companionway. Think of it the same as a fire extinguisher and smoke sensor that you hang up in case there is a fire. Protecting yourself is naturally inside all of us and I find it sad when I see a cruiser being ridiculed because he locks his dinghy or has a safety grate made for the companionway. Even if you will not do thise things, you can still respect others that do.
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Old 30-07-2013, 06:11   #133
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Sea Frog View Post
It's not about attracting attention of others. It is all about disabling the intruder. What you can't see - you can't get. Imagine a boat filled with smoke within seconds. Plus alarm gone crazy, lights and flashes. Even if the attacker is extremely determined, he simply won't be able to continue - he doesn't see a thing.

I really don't get the whole drama of "security". OK, pro grade system are big bucks, but there are cheap mass market solutions available too, that can be used. Everyone is discussing how ugly it is to wake up to a gun in your face and intruder in the boat, but WHY do that? A simple alarm system and custom made security enchancements for hatches will never allow any intruder unnoticed. By the time he even tries to get in, whole anchorage will wake up, and even police can be automatically notified and radio message broadcasted if needed. It really amazes me how people can discuss fighting threats and even killing intruders, when it is much easier and more effective to deter and avoid. OK, OK, not everybody can afford "big" toys, but cheap stuff and some brains and DIY skills can make your boat a fortress. You simply will NEVER have to "fight a wolf" - because there won't be a wolf to fight.

None of your suggestions have been explained in depth. How would this "fog" disable the intruder but not the boat occupants?

As for alarms, you really can't count on others to contact the authorities.Alarms go off so often when there's no emergency that most people ignore them. Can you count on the police to come and save you outside of the US? I'm sure it varies greatly, and the police available in many island communities aren't going to have a rapid response marine team. Automatically notifying the police? In St. Maartin? Guadalupe? Martinique? A little cove in Puerto Rico?

Personally i would prefer a strong gate that allows air flow, and then an air horn by my berth. Boaters are used to hearing air horns, know they often mean trouble for someone, and they don't go off by accident.

Of course, pepper spray through the gate wouldn't be bad, either, but if the pepper spray drifts into the cabin, then the boater is disabled as well and the intruder is now very angry.

It's really easy to just throw these ideas around but putting them into action isn't always that simple.
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Old 30-07-2013, 06:12   #134
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Re: Security

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It's not about attracting attention of others. It is all about disabling the intruder. What you can't see - you can't get. Imagine a boat filled with smoke within seconds. Plus alarm gone crazy, lights and flashes. Even if the attacker is extremely determined, he simply won't be able to continue - he doesn't see a thing.

I really don't get the whole drama of "security". OK, pro grade system are big bucks, but there are cheap mass market solutions available too, that can be used. Everyone is discussing how ugly it is to wake up to a gun in your face and intruder in the boat, but WHY do that? A simple alarm system and custom made security enchancements for hatches will never allow any intruder unnoticed. By the time he even tries to get in, whole anchorage will wake up, and even police can be automatically notified and radio message broadcasted if needed. It really amazes me how people can discuss fighting threats and even killing intruders, when it is much easier and more effective to deter and avoid. OK, OK, not everybody can afford "big" toys, but cheap stuff and some brains and DIY skills can make your boat a fortress. You simply will NEVER have to "fight a wolf" - because there won't be a wolf to fight.
Sea Frog:

I agree. Security is a good thing but, deterrence is a good thing too and it does not have to be expensive. For example you could buy a little 12 volt blinking LED for a buck or two and mount it in some conspicuous place in the cockpit where it will blink uninterrupted until you remove power. Is it hooked to an alarm system? Maybe yes, maybe no. Does not matter you just want to have the intruder think it is.
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Old 30-07-2013, 06:17   #135
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Your insistence on discussing the analogy I used for trying to explain the core of the issue, shows that you are not ready to discuss that issue itself, and try to divert the discussion.

FYI, I was not the one to come up with this analogy, so I will post the complete text here, incl. it's author:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.
Absolutist , mis directed , incorrect nonsense.

The fact is humans are capable of defending themselves , they chose however to live peaceful lives and in recognition of the darker side of humanity , they employ law, the justice system and police to root out such darker individuals and punish them.

There are no sheep , sheepdogs or wolfs , there are just humans. We are all capable of extreme violence or decent behaviour.

People are entirely correct to abhor armed police in schools. It is to accept a society that has clearly failed. No other society on The planet aspires to develop in such a way. The outlier is there for a reason.

I never read so much claptrap in my life.

Dave
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