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Old 29-07-2013, 18:20   #106
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Re: Security

You could use a fog deterrent plus a fire alarm... this would attract everyone instantly.

Security fog protection with a fog cannon, smoke cannon or fog generator -
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Old 29-07-2013, 18:30   #107
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Re: Security

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You could use a fog deterrent plus a fire alarm... this would attract everyone instantly.

Security fog protection with a fog cannon, smoke cannon or fog generator -
NICE!
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Old 29-07-2013, 18:36   #108
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Before we get stuck in this, let me make my point: there have been many of these discussions here and from one I remember that somebody wrote that he refuses to think about plans for his defense, refuses to reinforce his companionway entry etc. He could not go cruising if he had to think about that. Now, he clearly is a sheep that can only live without even thinking about the wolves. Some even deny that wolves exist: they will tell you that it is just a poor fisherman that just happens to have this gun in his hands instead of a net.

That's okay. But it illustrates that it is just not going to work to tell him that he should act and defend his wife, children, himself. He would not leave his home port if he had to have this on his mind. But also, he would never manage, because he would not see it coming, he would not be prepared, he would not know what to do and it would fail and he might even end up worse than when he would surrender and put all to the mercy of the attacker.

This is my point: just as it does not work for one group to sit down and surrender, it does not work for another group to stand up and confront. We should accept that these two groups are different and exist. It is useless to argue on which group is better or wiser because that discussion will never end.

I also read that somebody thinks the sheep equals citizens and that the sheepdogs equal LEO and military. But that is not reality. There are many sheepdog among civilians and there are also plenty sheep among LEO. You are in one or the other group because every fiber in your body tells you what to do when the time comes. Some will never take a seat in a restaurant with their back to the entrance, others would never think of it. That's how it is and it'll never change.

To get back to the analogy: many sheep cruisers think that sheepdog cruisers and pirate wolves are the same and sheepdog cruisers are considered dangerous and in need of help. Some even think that sheepdog attract the wolves. Besides the story I posted above and trying to understand it, I can only suggest to watch Animal Planet a bit more and learn that predators pick the weak and avoid risks. And respect your fellow sailors even if they choose to be in the other group.
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Old 29-07-2013, 18:53   #109
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Re: Security

I watch Animal Planet, how do the wolfs know which of the boats out in the bay are sheep?
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Old 29-07-2013, 19:08   #110
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I watch Animal Planet, how do the wolfs know which of the boats out in the bay are sheep?
You should try to think like the wolf, old lady singlehander without dog is a good mark and a second pass after dark might show if the companionway is closed or not. If closed, may be her dinghy can be taken, if open may be more. Oh wait, there is light shining out from another open companionway... that must be that couple who spend much at the tiki bar tonight and paid cash; drank more than good for them, will be easy and nice 15hp Enduro outboard too. They even brought us water when we motored by and asked them for a drink and smoke this morning.

Really, much easier than choosing a mark in a street filled with busy tourists.
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Old 29-07-2013, 19:23   #111
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Re: Security

Wolves know by observing their prey. They go for the young/old/weak that can't defend them selves as well as the fit can.

By leaving your companionway open and your dingy just floating out 10 yards behind you while at anchor, you make yourself look like an easy target. Your probably ARE an easy target.

I am also a sheepdog. I served (only) 5 years in the Marine Corps, having gotten out in 2008- but served a tour in Iraq and a MEU, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone harm me or my loved ones. Personal property is another matter, is it really worth being killed if someone wants your dingy (assuming they're armed)?
I'll protect my boat and belongs the best I can, but will only use force if absolutely necessary. I'm a big fan of the use of non-lethal force. I've had one of those super powerful strobes aimed at me. Believe me, they can be quite a deterrent when youve been blinded for a few minutes.
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Old 29-07-2013, 19:43   #112
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pirate Re: Security

I am one of those who leaves a washboard out for ventilation....
But then I don't give a ****... as most find out sooner or later...
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Old 29-07-2013, 21:31   #113
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Re: Security

Hey Don L, make that 88 on my ignore list.
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Old 30-07-2013, 01:39   #114
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Re: Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Before we get stuck in this, let me make my point: there have been many of these discussions here and from one I remember that somebody wrote that he refuses to think about plans for his defense, refuses to reinforce his companionway entry etc. He could not go cruising if he had to think about that. Now, he clearly is a sheep that can only live without even thinking about the wolves. Some even deny that wolves exist: they will tell you that it is just a poor fisherman that just happens to have this gun in his hands instead of a net.

That's okay. But it illustrates that it is just not going to work to tell him that he should act and defend his wife, children, himself. He would not leave his home port if he had to have this on his mind. But also, he would never manage, because he would not see it coming, he would not be prepared, he would not know what to do and it would fail and he might even end up worse than when he would surrender and put all to the mercy of the attacker.

This is my point: just as it does not work for one group to sit down and surrender, it does not work for another group to stand up and confront. We should accept that these two groups are different and exist. It is useless to argue on which group is better or wiser because that discussion will never end.

I also read that somebody thinks the sheep equals citizens and that the sheepdogs equal LEO and military. But that is not reality. There are many sheepdog among civilians and there are also plenty sheep among LEO. You are in one or the other group because every fiber in your body tells you what to do when the time comes. Some will never take a seat in a restaurant with their back to the entrance, others would never think of it. That's how it is and it'll never change.

To get back to the analogy: many sheep cruisers think that sheepdog cruisers and pirate wolves are the same and sheepdog cruisers are considered dangerous and in need of help. Some even think that sheepdog attract the wolves. Besides the story I posted above and trying to understand it, I can only suggest to watch Animal Planet a bit more and learn that predators pick the weak and avoid risks. And respect your fellow sailors even if they choose to be in the other group.
A brilliant well-thought out piece. I like your analogy. Keep up the good work.

My wife and I always have a plan, even before the last home invader broke his way into our house during the day in Massachusetts.... That's why he's in Jail now; we chased him down.... not the police. Too many people in America have been turned into sheeple by watching too much TV and have become dependent cowards where they think that when the wolf arrives, that they can pick up the telephone and call for help and someone else will come and take care of the problem.

Regarding the above piece: People seem to be either pre-wired internally for cower and surrender or rage and attack. It's best to have a good plan in place that doesn't involve just bug spray.
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Old 30-07-2013, 02:24   #115
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Re: Security

I 'd also like to add to the post above, that there seems to be nothing one can do to change the pre-wiring in one's fight or flight response, and you're not going to know how you'll react to a attack until placed in the situation. Even a well-trained warrior won't know until the time comes, but the training and preparation will increase their odds.

For example: My wife has demonstrated three times now, when she is attacked by a robber/intruder, she transforms instantly into an attack tiger and it's best to follow her lead, or get out of the way. So our plan takes our natural responses into consideration in order to increase our chance of survival. Of course, not intentionally placing one's self into a questionable or dangerous environment is the best defense, and I think this thought relates directly back to the original post.

I've had my fill with cruising and visiting turd world countries and dealing with crime... there's plenty of it back home. When we're on vacation, I don't want to be constantly on alert.
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Old 30-07-2013, 04:10   #116
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
You could use a fog deterrent plus a fire alarm... this would attract everyone instantly.

Security fog protection with a fog cannon, smoke cannon or fog generator -
Actually smoke generator deterrant was on my list "to install", it is a great thing. I would only make sure that other cruisers don't start to "put off fire" on your boat - otherwise, the cost may be much higher than the cost of whatever intruders could have stolen from the boat
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Old 30-07-2013, 04:18   #117
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Teknav View Post
For self-defense, pepper spray canisters should be on your boat!

Mauritz

I personally knew someone who was murdered in his bed with a can of pepper spray by his side. Awakened by someone in the middle of the night, groggy and confused, you cannot count on getting to the pepper spray in time. The only safety tactic is to keep people out.

Where does one get that security grid that lets the air through? I'm assuming it's stoutly made? At first it looked like a baby gate ...

One reason I don't cruise that as a single, older woman I am vulnerable and there are those out there who would see me as an easy target. Other single females may not feel that way, but I like the look of that gate if it's stout.
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Old 30-07-2013, 04:21   #118
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Having spent time around, "sheep, wolves and sheepdogs" as defined previously, I've made some observations myself. There can be a very fine line between preparedness and paranoia witnessed amongst the "sheepdogs". When they congregate it can make for interesting observation. The wannabe sheepdogs are even more entertaining. Typically one of them will be heard discussing their latest, gun, flashlight, kubaton, neck knife, etc. Shortly followed will be a discussion of why another better "prepared" sheepdog carries a larger caliber gun with more spare mags plus a backup gun, a higher lumen flashlight with strobe functions, a combat folding knife in all 8 pockets of their Royal Robin combat sleepwear, and a large can of bug spray etc. After seeing the previous partially exaggerated scenario played out hundreds of times in my life one thing seems pretty consistent: Sheepdogs, whether real or wannabes outside their "family pack", can appear nuts to sheep and some other sheepdogs alike. Which circles back around to that fine line dividing preparedness and paranoia. Since analogies seem to be favored on this thread, "I'd rather have a _____ and not need it, then to need it and not have it". Well duh!!! One can fill in the blank with virtually anything. "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" If I'm preparing for a gunfight, I want a tank, not a gun. But that's not very practical especially on a sailing forum. I wish to come out on top and I'm not interested in being fair. Actually before I spent too much time getting geared up for my imaginary gunfight, I'd be looking really hard at avoiding it all together. Does that make me a sheep? Making myself and my belongings appear a tougher target than nearby opportunities has always served me well. I look at it as preparedness but others may think I'm paranoid because I always lock up the dinghy and secure things.
Finishing with one of my favorite analogies that may show preparedness or paranoia: A person residing in central USA sprays himself with elephant repellent everyday before leaving the house. Whenever people learn of his ritual they tease him about being paranoid since there aren't any known elephant herds roaming around the states. He replies that he knows it's working because he's never been trampled by elephants. Everybody has their own personal level of minimum preparedness and attempting to place people into specific categories like sheep, sheepdogs and wolves is futile. To avoid any confusion, I'm very happy that there are professionally trained "sheepdogs" in the world.
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Old 30-07-2013, 04:22   #119
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Re: Security

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A brilliant well-thought out piece. I like your analogy. Keep up the good work.

My wife and I always have a plan, even before the last home invader broke his way into our house during the day in Massachusetts.... That's why he's in Jail now; we chased him down.... not the police. Too many people in America have been turned into sheeple by watching too much TV and have become dependent cowards where they think that when the wolf arrives, that they can pick up the telephone and call for help and someone else will come and take care of the problem.

Regarding the above piece: People seem to be either pre-wired internally for cower and surrender or rage and attack. It's best to have a good plan in place that doesn't involve just bug spray.

I really hate that "sheeple" word. People know what's right for them in an emergency, and sometimes chasing the person who went after you or your things isn't the best plan. A man just died here after chasing the man who robbed his restaurant. He died over a $36 meal. And, the police *did* catch the man who killed the restaurant owner -- and his two accomplices. The restaurant owner died needlessly.

You're not being a "sheeple" to know your own strengths and weaknesses. You're being smart.
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Old 30-07-2013, 04:33   #120
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Re: Security

Knowing strengths and weaknesses is one thing...actually doing something about them can transform you from one group to another.

Ultimately it's the mind that keeps you in one group or moves you to another.... everything else basically essentially falls into tactics and tools.
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