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Old 31-07-2013, 08:01   #196
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
That's different than what I was taught at Quantico (NAC-88-9). We were taught that it was essentially two different words for the same condition. But, like I said, I was an FBI agent, not a psychiatrist.

I don't know that the DSM 4 even distinguishes between the two.

DSM V has come out. When you were at Quantico, it was essentially two names for the same thing. As I say (and you know) they know the difference between right and wrong but don't care. That's entirely different than a paranoid schizophrenic who truly believes he's done the world a service by shooting his neighbor, who was Satan's son and preparing to throw over the world.

DSM V has actually changed the whole approach to personality disorders. I haven't seen DSM V. I'm not working in any aspect of mental health any more and won't have access to it in the forseeable future, and DSM protects its copyright closely. But here's a brief explanation of the direction DSM-V is going in.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...lity-disorders

Doesn't change the fact that bad people are bad people.
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Old 31-07-2013, 14:21   #197
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I'm not sure of the point , I think there are very few people that don't think there are " bad" people out there.

But it's all a question of probability and degree,

We all except that there are bad drivers out there that could kill us in an accident, but we still drive because we believe the benefits outweigh the risks. ( ie the sheep like grazing in the nice pasture , even though now and again a few are lost to the wolf )

Similarity we boat in nice places , but sometimes , albeit very infrequently , somebody comes a cropper. But that's the price to pay for such freedom. Attempts to provide total security are ill-thought out and impossible to achieve without turning the whole boating community on itself.

I had a US friend that was on a driving holiday on Ireland recently , he broke down, but was terrified to knock on a door of a remote farmhouse for fear of being shot , a view that was incredulous to the local police man that helped him out , but was based on his US experience.

Imagine cruising , where you wouldn't cross your neighbours boat , or raft up or come close for fear of staring down the wrong end of a Mossberg. This is the logical consequence of promoting fear of strangers, over stating the problem and suggesting that Armed response is a solution

Sorry for me , I'd prefer to loose a few sheep , even if , when the dice rolled, that was me.

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Old 31-07-2013, 14:39   #198
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pirate Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
No, David. Everyone does NOT have a conscience. The fact that you see "right" and "wrong" as varying between situations is ENTIRELY different than believing that "right" and "wrong" don't exist, that the only thing that matters is what you want, and everyone else be damned under all circumstances.

Here's one test psychologists have used to spot dangerous sociopaths (some will not kill, for instance, but not because it's "wrong" but because they might get caught and they wouldn't like that) ...

They're told a story. A man goes to the funeral of a man he knew and meets his sister, who he wants to meet again. He meets the man's cousin, who has expensive jewelry including a Rolex watch. He murders her cousin. Why does he do that?

Honest people say things like "He tried to rob him and it went badly," or some other obvious reason.

Sociopaths say, "So he could meet the woman again."

The sociopaths who turn into things like serial killers have a twisted need AND a narcissistic streak that causes them to believe that they're smarter than the police and will never be caught. Read up on the BTK Killer (stood for "bind, torture and kill") who worked for his city's government and was President of the congregation of the Lutheran church he, his wife and children attended. He had a need, so no problem in meeting it, and believed he would not be caught (and taunted the police).

Other sociopaths (Bernie Madow) don't kill but have no problem stealing millions of dollars from people supposed to be their friends, leaving some of them penniless.

A sociopath might see great flaws in the government but not act on those beliefs because he didn't want to go to federal prison, not because it was wrong.

Sorry, but anyone who thinks there aren't true sociopaths out there are being naive. I believe I met one. He had no problem rationalizing anything if it helped him get what he wanted. I don't believe he would have deliberately killed anyone, but he was capable of great violence, and capable of seeing it as justified because of what others had "done to him" (thwart something he wanted).
My name is not David...
Maybe you should slow down and organise your postings...
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Old 31-07-2013, 15:08   #199
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
My name is not David...
Maybe you should slow down and organise your postings...

If the response went to the wrong post, I'm sure the board program apologizes.
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Old 31-07-2013, 15:41   #200
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Re: Security

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I'm not sure of the point , I think there are very few people that don't think there are " bad" people out there.
This was (part of) my problem with the original "sheep" post. People are not, as a default assumption, stupid. I don't know anyone who doesn't believe there are "bad" people out there. I don't know anyone who wouldn't do whatever was necessary to protect loved ones. They're just not paranoid about it. And many of them have taken their turn at being "sheepdogs" before going back to civilian life (where they don't, believe it or not, turn into defenseless sheep). The whole basic premise of that post is wrong.

And not to choke everyone on metaphors, but this just occurred to me-when you're on the helm at midnight, are you the brave lone sheepdog protecting those impossibly naive sheep dozing below decks, ignorant of the dangers surrounding them? Or are you part of a human society in microcosm which has organized itself to get done what needs to be done in a cooperative way?

That's just a rhetorical question, by the way. I don't have time to read responses. Night is falling here in the Big City and I need to get out on the mean streets, a lone heroic figure patrolling the precincts of evil -

Lee rail? Over there. Why do you ask?
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Old 31-07-2013, 16:38   #201
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Re: Security

During a short stint as a sheep herder, (1 hour), I noticed when you chase sheep they will crowd together, while cows will spread apart.
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Old 31-07-2013, 16:44   #202
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pirate Re: Security

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During a short stint as a sheep herder, (1 hour), I noticed when you chase sheep they will crowd together, while cows will spread apart.
Its called the herd mentality...
like people they figure if there's someone outside of them they're safe...
Watch how a mob operates sometime...
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Old 31-07-2013, 17:04   #203
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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post

Its called the herd mentality...
like people they figure if there's someone outside of them they're safe...
Watch how a mob operates sometime...
Actually the dynamics of the herd in humans is very interesting , the primary feature being diminished individual reasoning. That doesnt mean people feel safer in herds , merely that they feel their personal decisions , and therefor moral conscience, has been overtaken by the collective decision.

Hence herds can be more violent for example then the individuals in it

Humans sometimes act collectively mainly to absolve themselves of their conscience or to avoid taking a personal decision, not to feel safer. Most humans , hide ( the flight reflex), if they need to feel safe , that's not a herd mentality. Hiding is often a very personal act

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Old 31-07-2013, 17:23   #204
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Its called the herd mentality...
like people they figure if there's someone outside of them they're safe...
Watch how a mob operates sometime...

Its the people who think like this who sound like sheeple to me. Another thought never gets in.
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Old 31-07-2013, 17:29   #205
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pirate Re: Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Actually the dynamics of the herd in humans is very interesting , the primary feature being diminished individual reasoning. That doesnt mean people feel safer in herds , merely that they feel their personal decisions , and therefor moral conscience, has been overtaken by the collective decision.

Hence herds can be more violent for example then the individuals in it

Humans sometimes act collectively mainly to absolve themselves of their conscience or to avoid taking a personal decision, not to feel safer. Most humans , hide ( the flight reflex), if they need to feel safe , that's not a herd mentality. Hiding is often a very personal act

Dave
Actually no... in riot control one learns the mob gathers behind the 'rams'... the rams don't really want to be that exposed but have no real choice once the momentum is going.... they're basically pushed along by the herd they've created with sheep shoved up tight behind and along side... once they're confronted by a line of riflemen 100 yds in front of them they balk... but the momentum behind.. and a certain amount of bravado keeps them advancing.. albeit a lot more slowly.
That's when the line fires... usually only one or two marksmen fire live in the first volley and pick off the 'leader/s'... the rest fires blanks... this prevents individual identification for a future retaliation
95% of the time this will result in a fight to get out off the way in the front and more sheep break thru to the fore.... a second volley over their heads usually does the trick and they break and run through/over/ whatever... they don't care... just like sheep in a pen that's been breached by wolves..
5% of the time they'll charge instead... you picked the wrong ram and your screwed... it only takes 10-15 seconds for them to cover that 100yds...
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Old 31-07-2013, 17:33   #206
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Re: Security

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Its called the herd mentality...
like people they figure if there's someone outside of them they're safe...
Watch how a mob operates sometime...

broken record ...
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Old 31-07-2013, 17:37   #207
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pirate Re: Security

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broken record ...
Sigh.... then why bother listening...
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Old 31-07-2013, 17:43   #208
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Actually no... in riot control one learns the mob gathers behind the 'rams'... the rams don't really want to be that exposed but have no real choice once the momentum is going.... they're basically pushed along by the herd they've created with sheep shoved up tight behind and along side... once they're confronted by a line of riflemen 100 yds in front of them they balk... but the momentum behind.. and a certain amount of bravado keeps them advancing.. albeit a lot more slowly.
That's when the line fires... usually only one or two marksmen fire live in the first volley and pick off the 'leader/s'... the rest fires blanks... this prevents individual identification for a future retaliation
95% of the time this will result in a fight to get out off the way in the front and more sheep break thru to the fore.... a second volley over their heads usually does the trick and they break and run through/over/ whatever... they don't care... just like sheep in a pen that's been breached by wolves..
5% of the time they'll charge instead... you picked the wrong ram and your screwed... it only takes 10-15 seconds for them to cover that 100yds...
I don't think you've spent enough time in conflict zones. When the bloods up , you have to shoot an awful lot of the mob to quell things , it all depends on what has triggered the situation. Many a riot police have found that to their cost , witness the typical over the top reaction to large scale rioting ,police forces know that pussy footing doesn't work. Then of course the mob returns with guns , things get nasty , sheep seem to like revenge. !!

Dave
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Old 31-07-2013, 17:55   #209
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pirate Re: Security

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I don't think you've spent enough time in conflict zones. When the bloods up , you have to shoot an awful lot of the mob to quell things , it all depends on what has triggered the situation. Many a riot police have found that to their cost , witness the typical over the top reaction to large scale rioting ,police forces know that pussy footing doesn't work. Then of course the mob returns with guns , things get nasty , sheep seem to like revenge. !!

Dave
Hey... I was trained for ***** in the 60's/70's.... a helluva lot of arms have been sold since then... and 'rams' have been trained by self serving morons who've gotten bitten in the ass...
But the principle is still the same... just tactics have changed and 'PC' and 'Human Rights' have entered the equation.
An example of the 'old way' is the 6 redcaps who got slaughtered in Iraq... like us they were sent out into situations with inadequate ammo and little reliable back up... a lot of things change in 30 yrs and sadly our 'Rams' don't give a damn about their sheep either... to busy playing WOLF back home
Since the mid 70's my 'conflict zone' visits have been as a civvie...
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Old 31-07-2013, 18:05   #210
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Re: Security

Interesting thread ... I like the sheepdog story ... OTOH ... in my town the Sheepdogs have BECOME the wolves (i.e. corrupt predatory police of whom normal citizens are MORE afraid than criminals)
But leaving aside that thread drift ...

human beings are not sheep ... but we do have different capacities for self defense.
The companionway "Ghetto screen door" looked like a very intelligent item. Thanks whoever posted that.

Call me old school ... but I believe in dogs as good security ... although that being said ... my dogs slept through a raccoon attack which killed 2 chickens in our back yard.
Ultimately I think intuition and awareness of your surroundings is the best defence, no?

Be actively aware of potential danger spots (females almost instinctively do this as many of us think like "prey" since we are used to the idea of predators)

I think the other part is: KNOW THYSELF.
I don't carry a gun ... but I might. I know myself enough to know that I could kill another human being if my life depended on it and I know that I am not fast enough or strong enough to compete with a professional gun thug. But I might just be smarter and have quicker wits.

I think security is like boats ... there is no one method which works for everyone.
Personally my favorite story was Captain Slocum and spreading tacks all around his bed to defeat night time marauders. Slocum's book is amazingly relevent even today ... as he faced both pirates and thieves and lived to tell the tale };>
Cheers,
NatKat
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