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Old 30-07-2013, 18:57   #181
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
This is not necessarily true. The FBI treats and teaches anti-social personality disorder as basically being the same problem from a criminal investigation perspective, regardless of whether the subject is clinically defined as a psychopath or sociopath. At least I know they did when I went through in 1988.

I admit it's a fine line and often uncertain distinction.

It was my understanding that psychopath is no longer used professionally. Sociopath comes under "anti-social personality," as a more severe form.

The best explanation I've ever seen is that sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong -- but they don't care.

They are the people without consciences.
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Old 30-07-2013, 19:16   #182
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Re: Security

I picked the correct day that the last 2 gun/security/hunting threads would be shut down. My pick for this one is tomorrow.
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Old 30-07-2013, 20:05   #183
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Re: Security

Ya know we can continue to talk about gun's and cross bows ect ect ! But it gets down to being prepared! We keep the dingy stowed and heavy locked. We also have deck lights that along with our anchor light, keeps us a little bit briter then most other boats around us ! we have had stainless grates for the main hatch, and 2 others for deck hatchs. This along with real bright lights that turn on from bed side. also a very loud screaming me-me horn I bought at a garage sale !! Most theves will leave with all the lights and noise ! and at least I have a chance to get myself together ! I don't need guns with this stuff! and heck look around your boat! It's loaded with weapons! from clubs to gaff hooks ! If they have guns ya just will have to stay below and hope for the best !! Thats the way it is !! If you all are scared to cruise than it makes more room for us to anchor LOL
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Old 30-07-2013, 21:47   #184
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I was thinking about the sheep, sheep dog analogy a little more... and unlike the last 40x I've heard it, I think I've come around to agree with it!
Though I am actually surprised the analogy is not more popular with the anti government crowd.

Based on the sheep farms I've been to, and a slight bit of tongue in cheek...

A sheep would normally be grazing, and occasionally preyed upon by wolves.
For the most part it would be left to it's own devices.

A sheepdog's primary function is not to protect sheep, it's function is primarily to force the sheep to stay in one group and go where the shepherd wants. As for the sheep they're fleeced by the shepherd each year (taxes?), up to a certain point when they are sold for their meat and killed.

The shepherd(the government) controls the sheep and the sheep dogs for his own gain, and decides who lives and who dies based on it's own gain. The sheep get no real say in their choice of shepherd, only the illusion of a direction of travel to escape the pesky sheep dog!


Finally, the end for a sheep dog that won't stop herding things on it's own, or that just won't herd the sheep anymore isn't very fun for the sheep dog! At best it gets fenced in to prevent it being a problem and gets left to die there, equally likely it gets put down.
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Old 30-07-2013, 23:56   #185
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Originally Posted by jgbrown View Post
A sheep (edit: in the wild)would normally be grazing, and occasionally preyed upon by wolves.
For the most part it would be left to it's own devices.

A sheepdog's primary function is not to protect sheep, it's function is primarily to force the sheep to stay in one group and go where the shepherd wants. As for the sheep they're fleeced by the shepherd each year (taxes?), up to a certain point when they are sold for their meat and killed.

The shepherd(the government) controls the sheep and the sheep dogs for his own gain, and decides who lives and who dies (edited out duplicate bit.) The sheep get no real say in their choice of shepherd only the illusion of a direction of travel to escape the pesky sheep dog!
Since cf won't allow me to edit, I had to edit in the quote to clear up my new version.
Point still stands, the analogy involved can be interpreted more than one way. Personally I still think it's a bit simplistic, but that's just me.
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Old 31-07-2013, 03:54   #186
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Re: Security

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Personally I still think it's a bit simplistic, but that's just me.
Not just you .

BTW I was thinking the same as you with the Shepherd etc, just couldn't be bothered to put it all together into words. Plus figured it might be a bit too complex for some..........
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Old 31-07-2013, 04:12   #187
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pirate Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
The best explanation I've ever seen is that sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong -- but they don't care.

They are the people without consciences.
Hmmmmm.... interesting one.
Some/many may consider me a Sociopath in this scenario... there is morally right and morally wrong...
Then there is Governmental Right and Wrong.... do I have a conscience regarding sticking a finger to the Governments 'Social Commands and Laws' created for their own personal protection and accumulation of power and wealth.... if it goes against my personal moral code.... No I Do Not..

However... will I mug an old lady?... will I break into your boat or try getting off with your missus if your anchored next to me...?
No I Will Not....
Everyone has a conscience of some kind.... its just maybe a tad different from yours...
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Old 31-07-2013, 04:33   #188
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pirate Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Andrew B. View Post
Originally Posted by psneeld
Yes they did...thankfully there were enough people willing to do something to end their methods.


What am I missing here, where's the humor ?
You've got to be from another country to appreciate it...
I'd leave it there... this is a sailing forum not a political one...
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Old 31-07-2013, 04:49   #189
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Re: Security

i must be living in a paralell universe,having pretty much travelled off the beaten track for the last 35 years,either hitch hiking,in a van or by yacht,visiting over 90 countries.

we/i have never been attacked,never locked our doors,and never felt the need to have weapons to hand other than for hunting.
other than petty pilfering in africa that i can count on one hand ,never had any thing of real value stolen.

in areas where there might have been a problem we would generally have a local approach and warn of danger.

being back in the uk for the last few years,and able to watch tv i now know how dangerous the world actually is............i may never leave my armchair again for fear of being mugged on the way to the village shop
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Old 31-07-2013, 04:56   #190
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pirate Re: Security

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
i must be living in a paralell universe,having pretty much travelled off the beaten track for the last 35 years,either hitch hiking,in a van or by yacht,visiting over 90 countries.

we/i have never been attacked,never locked our doors,and never felt the need to have weapons to hand other than for hunting.
other than petty pilfering in africa that i can count on one hand ,never had any thing of real value stolen.

in areas where there might have been a problem we would generally have a local approach and warn of danger.

being back in the uk for the last few years,and able to watch tv i now know how dangerous the world actually is............i may never leave my armchair again for fear of being mugged on the way to the village shop
+A1.....
But then our world has been changed for us over the last 20yrs....
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Old 31-07-2013, 05:18   #191
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Re: Security

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+A1.....
But then our world has been changed for us over the last 20yrs....
hollywood stopped making good "cowboy and indian" movies around that time,as it was much more pc to make the arabs the bad guys
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Old 31-07-2013, 05:37   #192
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pirate Re: Security

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
I picked the correct day that the last 2 gun/security/hunting threads would be shut down. My pick for this one is tomorrow.
As your a fellow 'Wharram Lover'.... I'll do my best (within the rules) to help you out...
Damn... its not you with the 'Wharram'.... but what the hell... I'm a nice guy...??
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Old 31-07-2013, 06:04   #193
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by jgbrown View Post
Since cf won't allow me to edit, I had to edit in the quote to clear up my new version.
Point still stands, the analogy involved can be interpreted more than one way. Personally I still think it's a bit simplistic, but that's just me.

I think it's overworked. There are people who behave honorably, and people who act badly.

People who act honorably *with the expectation that everyone else will as well* are naive.
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Old 31-07-2013, 06:15   #194
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Re: Security

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Hmmmmm.... interesting one.
Some/many may consider me a Sociopath in this scenario... there is morally right and morally wrong...
Then there is Governmental Right and Wrong.... do I have a conscience regarding sticking a finger to the Governments 'Social Commands and Laws' created for their own personal protection and accumulation of power and wealth.... if it goes against my personal moral code.... No I Do Not..

However... will I mug an old lady?... will I break into your boat or try getting off with your missus if your anchored next to me...?
No I Will Not....
Everyone has a conscience of some kind.... its just maybe a tad different from yours...

No, David. Everyone does NOT have a conscience. The fact that you see "right" and "wrong" as varying between situations is ENTIRELY different than believing that "right" and "wrong" don't exist, that the only thing that matters is what you want, and everyone else be damned under all circumstances.

Here's one test psychologists have used to spot dangerous sociopaths (some will not kill, for instance, but not because it's "wrong" but because they might get caught and they wouldn't like that) ...

They're told a story. A man goes to the funeral of a man he knew and meets his sister, who he wants to meet again. He meets the man's cousin, who has expensive jewelry including a Rolex watch. He murders her cousin. Why does he do that?

Honest people say things like "He tried to rob him and it went badly," or some other obvious reason.

Sociopaths say, "So he could meet the woman again."

The sociopaths who turn into things like serial killers have a twisted need AND a narcissistic streak that causes them to believe that they're smarter than the police and will never be caught. Read up on the BTK Killer (stood for "bind, torture and kill") who worked for his city's government and was President of the congregation of the Lutheran church he, his wife and children attended. He had a need, so no problem in meeting it, and believed he would not be caught (and taunted the police).

Other sociopaths (Bernie Madow) don't kill but have no problem stealing millions of dollars from people supposed to be their friends, leaving some of them penniless.

A sociopath might see great flaws in the government but not act on those beliefs because he didn't want to go to federal prison, not because it was wrong.

Sorry, but anyone who thinks there aren't true sociopaths out there are being naive. I believe I met one. He had no problem rationalizing anything if it helped him get what he wanted. I don't believe he would have deliberately killed anyone, but he was capable of great violence, and capable of seeing it as justified because of what others had "done to him" (thwart something he wanted).
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Old 31-07-2013, 07:04   #195
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Re: Security

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It was my understanding that psychopath is no longer used professionally. Sociopath comes under "anti-social personality," as a more severe form.

The best explanation I've ever seen is that sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong -- but they don't care.

They are the people without consciences.
That's different than what I was taught at Quantico (NAC-88-9). We were taught that it was essentially two different words for the same condition. But, like I said, I was an FBI agent, not a psychiatrist.

I don't know that the DSM 4 even distinguishes between the two.
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