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Old 30-07-2013, 06:37   #136
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Anyway, this thing that gets you into trouble is to socialize with local shady characters like dope dealers, pimps, gangs and so on, the list is long. If you really need to buy a joint, which ai would ot advice to do at all, then make it a cold business transaction, keep distance and get out. Never go have a drink with these characters or even invite them aboard. Same for "cruisers" who seem to run something locally.
+1

Lie down with dogs and you run the risk of catching fleas.

Can be fun though .


Mostly relating to the above, but one thing that has caught out more than a few when abroad (am not talking boats here - but the principal the same) is that most of your "mojo" does not travel with you...........and it don't matter whether you are the love child of Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee or even also have the arsenal of Rambo, the most important things you don't have are numbers (when trouble happens likely your new "friends" are smart enough not to get involved and you will be very much on your own), no local knowledge or connections (lots of places the Police work both sides, passively or actively - plusses and minuses to that), nowhere to run to (looking different has a downside!) and very likely no inherent understanding of when folks are playing for keeps, even those places that share a god don't have the same rules on proportionality......
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Old 30-07-2013, 06:44   #137
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Re: Security

Claptrap?

A simple Google search provided hundreds if not thousands of articles on the Wolf/Sheep....issue...across all sorts of idealologies and studies.

From - Are you a wolf or a sheep?

"As our results show, one man's poison is another man's cake," says Schultheiss, associate professor of psychology. "The power-hungry 'wolves' among our participants were hit hardest by a defeat, whereas the 'sheep' couldn't care less about being beaten."

As it turns out, then, not only does being defeated hurt some more than others. Defeating others also might be a source of stress, the researchers conclude.
"The sheep were really uncomfortable with winning," Schultheiss says. "This runs counter to the idea that everybody likes coming out at the top of the heap. That's a really surprising finding for us."
As I see it....from everything between classrooms, business, to world wars.... the concept has been studied and documented and it's very easy to see it in the personalities in these threads as well.
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Old 30-07-2013, 06:45   #138
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
+1

Lie down with dogs and you run the risk of catching fleas.

Can be fun though .


Mostly relating to the above, but one thing that has caught out more than a few when abroad (am not talking boats here - but the principal the same) is that most of your "mojo" does not travel with you...........and it don't matter whether you are the love child of Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee or even also have the arsenal of Rambo, the most important things you don't have are numbers (when trouble happens likely your new "friends" are smart enough not to get involved and you will be very much on your own), no local knowledge or connections (lots of places the Police work both sides, passively or actively - plusses and minuses to that), nowhere to run to (looking different has a downside!) and very likely no inherent understanding of when folks are playing for keeps, even those places that share a god don't have the same rules on proportionality......
The more you post...the better you get...
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Old 30-07-2013, 06:48   #139
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To expand.


Humans desire to live in peaceful harmony , in the main. Increasingly we specialise , we have people that engineer things , we have people that build things and we train and employ people to offer us a degree of protection from those that choose to step outside societies norms

Notice two things.

There are no " warriors " merely ordinary people trained and supplied to do a specific task. All of us can be " so called " warriors. Aggression is not a prerequisite to enter the police.!

Serving in an army certainly doesn't make you a warriors. Armies are extensions of the power of the state. They are not there to uphold the social order

Secondly we consciously accept a " degree of protection". Society accepts that a certain number of Casualties will occur , yet in general we do not seek " zero tolerance " it is utterly ludicrous to destroy one society in an attempt to make it free from malice.

Equally most societies severely restrict an individuals ability to respond to threats. This has developed over many centuries to ensure that eye for eye justice is deprecated and a organised judgmental process with controlled retribution was promoted in its place

It's worth pointing out that unlike the sheepdog society controls its so called guardians, so as to assure the sheepdogs don't go rabid. It's the sheep that have the power not the dogs

Far better to accept a certain causality rate then descend into armed vigilantism, peace and democracy require the odd sacrifice , its not that there's any shortage of sheep

The wolves need to eat too , to use this absurd , ridiculous analogy

Dave
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Old 30-07-2013, 07:07   #140
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Re: Security

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None of your suggestions have been explained in depth. How would this "fog" disable the intruder but not the boat occupants?
The difference between intruder and boat occupant is that boat accupant KNOWS his boat intimately and can walk his way around with his eyes closed. Unlike intruder which is effectively completely blinded by the fog. Please google for "smoke deterrant" and you will see videos showing the stuff in action. I would only use it as a "last defence" IF intruder gets inside. That is unlikely to happen because of all steel bars in the hatches and so on. Plus the alarm will sound before he can even start breaking in.

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As for alarms, you really can't count on others to contact the authorities.Alarms go off so often when there's no emergency that most people ignore them. Can you count on the police to come and save you outside of the US? I'm sure it varies greatly, and the police available in many island communities aren't going to have a rapid response marine team. Automatically notifying the police? In St. Maartin? Guadalupe? Martinique? A little cove in Puerto Rico?
My previous posts in this thread suggested using "unbearable" alarms like "Inferno" or "Phasor pain field". They are not about notifying others around you, but stopping intruder in his track. I personally don't think there is a human being able to keep on with a wall of ear-piercing sound that is about to blow his brains out. Unless he is using quality sound muffling devices.

Notification of authorities is a thing that can be easily performed automatically - a pre-recorded message, a cellular notifier, or even by radio.

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
It's really easy to just throw these ideas around but putting them into action isn't always that simple.
It is done for years in one way or another by home scurity systems manufacturers. My house alarm has cellular notification module and it dials my number in case of whatever. My car has one too. They are sold rather cheaply. I am sure I can get an interface for a VHF that will broadcast a pre-recorded message too (or build one if needed). Ear-piercing alarms are widely available too. I really don't see a problem here. If one wants, he can find all necessary items. I would strongly suggest using dummy video cameras too (works well with a sign that the boat is under survailance).

And hey, don't anchor alone in potentially dangerous places.
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Old 30-07-2013, 07:39   #141
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Re: Security

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
To expand.


Humans desire to live in peaceful harmony , in the main. Increasingly we specialise , we have people that engineer things , we have people that build things and we train and employ people to offer us a degree of protection from those that choose to step outside societies norms

Notice two things.

There are no " warriors " merely ordinary people trained and supplied to do a specific task. All of us can be " so called " warriors. Aggression is not a prerequisite to enter the police.!

Serving in an army certainly doesn't make you a warriors. Armies are extensions of the power of the state. They are not there to uphold the social order

Secondly we consciously accept a " degree of protection". Society accepts that a certain number of Casualties will occur , yet in general we do not seek " zero tolerance " it is utterly ludicrous to destroy one society in an attempt to make it free from malice.

Equally most societies severely restrict an individuals ability to respond to threats. This has developed over many centuries to ensure that eye for eye justice is deprecated and a organised judgmental process with controlled retribution was promoted in its place

It's worth pointing out that unlike the sheepdog society controls its so called guardians, so as to assure the sheepdogs don't go rabid. It's the sheep that have the power not the dogs

Far better to accept a certain causality rate then descend into armed vigilantism, peace and democracy require the odd sacrifice , its not that there's any shortage of sheep

The wolves need to eat too , to use this absurd , ridiculous analogy

Dave
OK.... that seems to be your opinion... and I bet guys like Hitler and Hussein...just wanted peace and harmony.

Not only does history suggest you are incorrect, but a huge amount of professional writings as well.....

Other people are entitled to their opinions without the label Claptrap associated with it.
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Old 30-07-2013, 07:49   #142
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Re: Security

..."Go Ahead, Make My Day!"... When you post your suggestion/reply, kindly make it short and to the point; a paragraph or two, not pages and pages long. Thanks!

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Old 30-07-2013, 08:11   #143
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Re: Security

(Die, thread, die)

Jedi, while I appreciate that there are truths in your sheep/wolf/sheepdog analogy, it must be said that thinking one is a sheepdog, and buying the right collar, does not make one a sheepdog. (not saying that this is you)

"all are not huntsmen who blow the huntsman's horn"

To torture the analogy even further, the sheep can also pool their money for fences and shepherds, and send the wolves to obedience school.

So probably what irks me about gun/security discussions is all the wannabe sheepdogs. There are other ways to stay safe besides channeling Rambo. (again not saying that you do, just that this is where these threads end up going)

Still... die, thread, die!
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Old 30-07-2013, 08:21   #144
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Re: Security

Well I see this thread has gone to the dogs.
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Old 30-07-2013, 08:26   #145
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OK.... that seems to be your opinion... and I bet guys like Hitler and Hussein...just wanted peace and harmony.

Not only does history suggest you are incorrect, but a huge amount of professional writings as well.....

Other people are entitled to their opinions without the label Claptrap associated with it.
Why bring thoses two individuals into it. Firstly its a purely US view of world politics. And secondly what happened in those countries was complex , multi sided and varied

Not does mentioning these individuals in any way support any other argument.

IT IS claptrap to quote a clearly biased US military source. Clearly absurd to compare society to sheep , dogs and wolves ( and then to pathetically defend the use of a clearly pejorative word ' sheep')

It's clearly claptrap nor is it the way society chooses to organise itself

Proponents of armed response do two things

A, present the situation as more extreme or dangerous or unstable then it is.

B. fuel the notion that individual armed response is better then a societal response.

Why , it promotes gun ownership by scaring people.

Dave
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Old 30-07-2013, 08:30   #146
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Re: Security

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Other people are entitled to their opinions without the label Claptrap associated with it.
I agree with the first part of that statement - but not the second.

Of course that also applies to me........
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Old 30-07-2013, 08:43   #147
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Re: Security

Security measures are an absolute necessity, even if it just means locking your doors and locking up or pulling up your dinghy, but let me give everyone here on CF a little insight from personal experience on who your attacker will actually be, and that there's no way to intellectualize what to do or know how you'll act when the time comes.

As I've said in earlier posts, my wife and I have been in these situations at least three times in the past and have been lucky to come out on top. Your attacker will be someone who you may have met earlier in the day, someone who maybe waved hello from a passing dinghy, a nice fellow looking for work on your boat or home, someone admiring the flowers your wife just planted in the front yard, someone who's apparently knocked on the wrong door looking for "John".... don't know why it's always John.... anyway, you've been cased. The perp is looking for an easy target, remember he was probably the schoolyard bully earlier in life, so he or she is looking for someone who won't fight back... someone maybe small... someone who's friendly, Maybe both or someone alone.... that gets you extra points.

The attacker always has the advantage. No matter how well you plan, he has the element of surprise and usually an escape planned.... you on the other hand, will be totally confused for about 10 seconds while trying to process why this nice man you met earlier in the day is back at your place now, and you now find yourself cornered in a place you felt was secure. At this very moment of realization of the danger at hand.... you are programmed internally to act one way or the other.... to fight back violently, or to act submissive. To deny this absolute fact is where you can get into trouble. You won't be able to think your way through this, nor will you just "know what to do" because your so smart... things will happen way too fast.

Some folks will insist that military style training and preparedness works, but remember that police and military always arrive in huge numbers and with weapons to overwhelm their opponents... you on the other hand will be one on one... or one against many when you're confronted with the situation.

This isn't "Rambo talk" this is reality, and I'm trying to help... so hold back the critiques.
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Old 30-07-2013, 08:49   #148
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Re: Security

What is missing from this equation, is the Shepard, who also watches over the flock, and guards against the wolves, purely on a self interested basis, for those who are the Shepard, they guard the sheep for their own personal profit, to sell for slaughter, to keep the herd numbers manageable, to shear the sheep to sell the wool, while the sheep keep eating to produce more wool. The flock gets thinned dispassionately by the Shepard, the weak and unfit are put down without remorse or reflection, just as the wolf does, and the wolf also performs this activity in the wild to keep herds strong. When there is an abundance of food the herd grows exponentially as do the predators, when the food falls off, then the wolves die of starvation along with the flock, female wolves will eat their own young in times of hardship. The emotional element is removed from the reality of life. In times of hardship even the sheep dog will fall on the flock to eat.
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Old 30-07-2013, 08:49   #149
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Re: Security

LOL!

Nobody is going to change anyone's opinion on this subject.

It's pretty simple to me. If you don't want to have a weapon on board, don't. If you do want a weapon, go for it. If you decide to you should be aware of the laws in the area you find yourself or plan to go. If you break the laws, either willingly or out of ignorance, you may want to be aware of the consequences and decide the risk versus perceived reward.

What you decide does not affect me and what I decide does not affect you. Who cares?

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Old 30-07-2013, 08:54   #150
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Re: Security

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Anyway, this thing that gets you into trouble is to socialize with local shady characters like dope dealers, pimps, gangs and so on, the list is long. If you really need to buy a joint, which ai would ot advice to do at all, then make it a cold business transaction, keep distance and get out. Never go have a drink with these characters or even invite them aboard. Same for "cruisers" who seem to run something locally.
Very true. I've worked in New Orleans, Baltimore, Miami and Dallas, and several foreign countries, (including the Bahamas) as law enforcement or a law enforcement representative for the United States.

Invariably, when you saw a tourist murdered in some place I worked, the newspaper and media would make it look like a random unlucky event for the poor tourist. But, we who worked there, would often recognize the area they were killed in as a drug sales area, and quite often the investigation would reveal a drug deal gone bad, or a robbery subsequent to the drug deal, by associates of the drug dealer they had used, who had dropped a dime on them to his more ruthless and more unsavory friends.

Most murder victims are killed because of their own actions. Not to say it is their fault, but only to say, that they did things that weren't very smart, and those actions led to their death.
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