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Old 25-04-2015, 11:32   #61
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Mark, et al,
-- Just curious if these charting inaccuracies that you all mention are similar to the ones we see in the Bahamas??
-- In that the soundings / shoals / reefs, etc. might be accurate, referenced to the land / islands / coastlines....but based on GPS positions are inaccurately charted??
-- And, are many of the land masses / island shorelines, also inaccurate referenced to GPS positions???



Again, just curious....

Because, many years ago (decades before GPS), in the Bahamas, we used the charts we had, and based our position on the water depth, our DR plots, and coastal piloting / based on range and bearing from land / coastlines, etc....
But, in the last 20 years, I've seen many comment on chart issues in the Bahamas....but it is usually just that the positions of the reefs / shoals, etc. are out-of-place compared to their actual GPS position, but they are correctly charted when compared to distance off the island or distance between, etc....

So, just wondering if these San Blas chart issues are the same as we have in the Bahamas??


Thanks!

John
This is a common error. The basis is that the back ground charts used for GPS navigation are taken directly from the original paper charts, drawn by hand, some by the British Navy & Sextant, some 200 years old. When these are used as background, the alignment is by the chart lat-long. Since the gross position on the earth was determined by hand from a bench-mark in England & also depends on an accurate time, the gross position can be off significantly. The local data as relates to land forms is often very good. We have even seen this sailing in the North Channel of Lake Huron. We had to sail directly through several islands to enter one bay. There are places along Mexico where your plotter may show you 1/4 mile inland.

This is the strongest point to be made for cruising meta data to be recorded & downloaded for chart updates & enhancements. A pilot test of this was done a few years ago & showed remarkable detail of previously sketchy areas. The normal mapping entities such as NOAA refuse to consider this because, "the data may be untrustworthy". I say that in places off the beaten path, it is far better data than 200 year old charts.
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Old 25-04-2015, 11:54   #62
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

I always thought San Blas was a 'by the eye' navigation area. And all the charts I have looked up looked iffy at best .

Now I can hear with a good plotter and a sonar man kan.

I am amazed at how the charting of that particular area improved over these last couple of years. I bet Kunas and Google did all the survey and cartography work!

So that who wants to understand how comes such a small area is getting such a high rate of pleasure boat wrecks needs look no further.

Bueno, same old thing, methinks,
b.
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Old 25-04-2015, 12:16   #63
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I always thought San Blas was a 'by the eye' navigation area. And all the charts I have looked up looked iffy at best .

Now I can hear with a good plotter and a sonar man kan.

I am amazed at how the charting of that particular area improved over these last couple of years. I bet Kunas and Google did all the survey and cartography work!

So that who wants to understand how comes such a small area is getting such a high rate of pleasure boat wrecks needs look no further.

Bueno, same old thing, methinks,
b.
As has been stated numerous times in this thread, there exists charts now for this area made from meticulous surveys by a skilled surveyor/cartographer over several years. It is an incredible undertaking by a single man - Eric Bauhaus. The Kunas and Google had nothing to do with it.

These wrecks are not new occurances - they happen every year and go back to the times of paper charts. There are even several commercial ships wrecked on the outside reefs due to piloting errors. They are not increasing in frequency, and do not fit the profile that supports your conformation bias.

Mark
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Old 27-04-2015, 07:40   #64
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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4 boats lost in Belize so far this year and we are only in April!!!!

January
French Steel Boat on the reef near Caye Caulker

April
To Sea/Do Sea near San Pedro,
Southerly 32 Blue near Punta Gorda, new owners
French Aluminium boat near Nicolas Caye
Certainly similarities between Belize & San Blas:

- generally inacurrate government/commercial charts (both paper & electronic)

- very thurough & accurate cruising guides available (Rauscher & Bauhaus respectivley)

- complex waters with many opportunities to make catastrophic errors

- extensive barrier reef structures to leeward on approach from seaward

...a seeming endless supply of sailors willing to do foolish things.
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Old 27-04-2015, 08:45   #65
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

Looks like a bad spot for metal boats.
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Old 27-04-2015, 13:32   #66
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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Looks like a bad spot for metal boats.
Huh??
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Old 27-04-2015, 13:58   #67
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

Just read how Carioca went up on the reef...single hander, set an alarm to take a nap...oops.

Looked at the wreck of "Adiamo" today, aground stern first on Wichubhuala (just S of Porvenir). Only went aground about a month ago...locals are still stripping it. Apparently drug anchor.
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Old 27-04-2015, 14:06   #68
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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Massimo on Lacardinala says 19 reef groundings this year. You may know him he has been in San blass for around 20 seasons on a 57 ft Sparkman and Stephens.
When we were in San Blas last season we used his tracks on Maxsea. We also found a few places where Bauhaus was a little off. I marked my copy but it's on the boat in ft Lauderdale.
I will share the details with him, I didn't realize it was still being updated and printed.
Regards
Paul
Hey, Massimo is a good friend of us; send him greetings from the Jedi crew
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Old 28-04-2015, 15:03   #69
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

Found a new to me wreck today while snorkeling along the entrance channel at Chicheme. There is a Beneteau-ish looking boat of about 40' LOA in about 25' of water on the S side of the channel. Hull is mostly in tact except much of the starboard topsides are torn away. Has been stripped almost clean of hardware including winches. The motor, at least most of it, is still in it.

Bits and pieces of another wreck are on the bottom near this one. The keel and associated hull section of the second wreck sit high and dry on the shoal near the channel entrance.
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Old 28-04-2015, 16:02   #70
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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Found a new to me wreck today while snorkeling along the entrance channel at Chicheme. There is a Beneteau-ish looking boat of about 40' LOA in about 25' of water on the S side of the channel. Hull is mostly in tact except much of the starboard topsides are torn away. Has been stripped almost clean of hardware including winches. The motor, at least most of it, is still in it.

Bits and pieces of another wreck are on the bottom near this one. The keel and associated hull section of the second wreck sit high and dry on the shoal near the channel entrance.
I believe the boat from that Spanish pirate that killed cruisers for their boats sunk there. He killed a friend of ours and is now rotting away in a Panama jail I hope
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Old 28-04-2015, 17:16   #71
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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I believe the boat from that Spanish pirate that killed cruisers for their boats sunk there. He killed a friend of ours and is now rotting away in a Panama jail I hope
Too bad he's taking up useful space in jail, they should have tied him to the boat.
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Old 28-04-2015, 20:47   #72
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

Hi Nick, I'll pass on your regards to Massimo. He docked at the new Marina in Linton. A lot cheaper than SB
Regards
Paul
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Old 29-04-2015, 06:56   #73
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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... killed cruisers for their boats...
Plural? I thought there was just one such murder?
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Old 29-04-2015, 07:03   #74
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

How does Panama charge the owners for removing their wreckage from the reefs and channels?

I know some countries may arrest the owner until settled (e.g. Belize) while others allow them to just jump on a ship or plane and go home (e.g. Kiribati) without paying a dime for the damage done.

What is Panama's official stand on this?

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Old 29-04-2015, 07:39   #75
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Re: San Blas Panama Wrecks

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Plural? I thought there was just one such murder?
No, he killed a Frenchman @ Portobelo for his catamaran and a Yankee for his mono at Chicheme. They found the Frenchman tied to an anker in the bay of Portobelo, I didn't know him, and they never found Don.

The Spaniard tried to escape into the Darien but had used a stolen identity so got caught just before entering Darien.
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