Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-02-2013, 10:12   #436
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,942
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
As to Lake-Effect's link in Slate Magazine about replacing "all the windows" in New York City with triple-pane insulated glass - great idea - but get a grip on reality. If it was even possible mechanically given the age and condition of the majority of buildings in which New Yorkers live, the cost would be astronomical. And where would the money come from?

...

But the idea that there is some omnipotent force/government/whatever, that can effect and accomplish immediate change on such a massive scale is simply probably the result of smoking some of that funny stuff Willie Nelson is famous for smoking.
Way to go. Misrepresent the proposal, then fan it away.

ONCE AGAIN, a climate-change-denier is
- misrepresenting the proposed solutions as something that must be immediate and hideously expensive, despite having everything in front of them (you did see the target of 2050, yes?)
- and of course using this as an excuse to do nothing, and to strangle policies that are mindful of the need to take positive action.

You have heard of building codes, right? You do know that Americans underpay for fossil fuels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
Obviously, from the Obama Fairy
Ah, I see we're going all-in, heading for thread suicide. What's next, a Nazi reference?
__________________

__________________
Lake-Effect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2013, 10:30   #437
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,033
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Osiris?
The US EPA seems to agree with me about no coral reefs north of Florida.

Coral Reef Initiatives | Habitat Protection | US EPA
"Northernmost coral reefs in North America on salt-domes off the coast of Texas."

Oh, yes, they also discuss their management programs. They think the programs exist--for the reefs they know about.

We have reefs in the northeast. And we have reefs, mainly sunken wrecks, that are quite nicely crusted with soft corals. But those are not considered coral reefs, only masses of hard coral are. And Google doesn't find any north of Florida, either. Neither have any of the dive shops, operators, associations, or acedmics I've known. Did we miss something?
__________________

__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2013, 11:28   #438
Registered User
 
Fishspearit's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 576
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
The US EPA seems to agree with me about no coral reefs north of Florida.
We have reefs in the northeast. And we have reefs, mainly sunken wrecks, that are quite nicely crusted with soft corals. But those are not considered coral reefs, only masses of hard coral are. And Google doesn't find any north of Florida, either. Neither have any of the dive shops, operators, associations, or acedmics I've known. Did we miss something?
Bermuda? Sure looked like hard coral reefs when I dove on them.

http://spo.nwr.noaa.gov/mfr622/mfr6222.pdf

"Sometimes saving things that most people can't see takes a long time, but they are worth fighting for," said Doug Rader, a scientist with Environmental Defense Fund who has worked for more than a decade to protect the deep-sea coral reefs that stretch down the coasts of North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Florida. Atlantic Coral Reefs in Florida, Georgia, NC and SC to Get Protection | Environmental Defense Fund
__________________
Fishspearit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2013, 11:45   #439
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Most probably a difference in definition of the term "coral reef" - various governmental and other bodies have some unusual definitions of things that the rest of the folks like the guys diving in Massachusetts, Bermuda, etc. like to call "coral reefs." So different folk can be "correct" even when seemingly having opposite assertions - if they use different definitions.
__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2013, 15:20   #440
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,033
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Bermuda? Isn't in the US, unless we invaded and took it last night and someone forgot to send me the memo. I really hate when those memos get lost that way.

Definitions: Could be, but if you ask ANYONE who lives on the US east coast if there are coral reefs in their waters? They'll look at you like you just landed from Mars, until you get down into Florida. No question in any part of the US: If it won't rip the skin off your bones, it isn't a coral reef.

We define a coral reef as a solid reef built by coral, and the soft corals just do not build anything.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2013, 17:43   #441
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Bermuda? Isn't in the US, unless we invaded and took it last night and someone forgot to send me the memo. I really hate when those memos get lost that way.

Definitions: Could be, but if you ask ANYONE who lives on the US east coast if there are coral reefs in their waters? They'll look at you like you just landed from Mars, until you get down into Florida. No question in any part of the US: If it won't rip the skin off your bones, it isn't a coral reef.

We define a coral reef as a solid reef built by coral, and the soft corals just do not build anything.
Every surfer in the world knows that if you surf on the east coast of the US you are on a sandbar break, not like Hawaii where you would be on a reef...
__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2013, 17:45   #442
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,033
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

What do you call a surfer on the east coast of the US?

Lost, without a clue. Dude, where'd my surf go?!
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2013, 18:25   #443
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Valentines Day Doom

Well, we almost bit it yesterday. The meteorite wasn't quite big enough but no one seems to know it was coming.

Russian meteor: Why didn’t we know it was coming? - Slate Magazine

Meteorite explodes over Russia, more than 1,000 injured

Quote:
The meteorite, which weighed about 10 metric tons and may have been made of iron, entered Earth's atmosphere and broke apart 30-50 km (19-31 miles) above ground, according to Russia's Academy of Sciences.

The energy released when it entered the Earth's atmosphere was equivalent to a few kilotonnes, the academy said, the power of a small atomic weapon exploding.............................

The meteorite struck just as an asteroid known as 2012 DA14, about 46 m in diameter, was due to pass closer to Earth - at a distance of 27,520 km (17,100 miles) - than any other known object of its size since scientists began routinely monitoring asteroids about 15 years ago.
Meteorite explodes over Russia, more than 1,000 injured | Reuters

Video>>> Meteorites slam into Russia as meteor seen streaking through morning sky - CBS News
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2013, 20:54   #444
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Way to go. Misrepresent the proposal, then fan it away.

ONCE AGAIN, a climate-change-denier is
- misrepresenting the proposed solutions as something that must be immediate and hideously expensive, despite having everything in front of them (you did see the target of 2050, yes?)
- and of course using this as an excuse to do nothing, and to strangle policies that are mindful of the need to take positive action.

You have heard of building codes, right? You do know that Americans underpay for fossil fuels?



Ah, I see we're going all-in, heading for thread suicide. What's next, a Nazi reference?
You don't need to shout at the climate -change-sceptics or shout and lable an opposing viewpoint as a denier or Nazi.

Thats the typical political approach of shouting down the oposition. Is it any wonder many are skeptical with your approach.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2013, 08:49   #445
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
What do you call a surfer on the east coast of the US?

Lost, without a clue. Dude, where'd my surf go?!
I have dropped in on some surf that was 6-7 ft over head at Cape Hatteras...thats not Marizo or Bells beach but lots of fun when all you do is walk out the front door! If you get slammed you want be chopped up into fish food...
__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2013, 09:49   #446
Registered User
 
IceDog's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montana
Boat: Building a Seaclipper 24
Posts: 224
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Thanks for an interesting discussion on reef systems and climate change. I don't delude myself that a cruising sailboat is very environmentally friendly, but this discussion has made me rethink how I will approach my sailboat project and my upcoming cruise. I am going to upgrade the solar panels on the boat significantly and install a robust LifeP04 battery bank to provide adequate power so that I can for instance support using an electric dinghy motor and hopefully never need to use the engine or a fossil fuel generator simply to make electricity. Now if I could only figure out where to hang a pallet load of solar panels on the boat, maybe I could go electric propulsion...

People don't change overnight or even over a year or two. By leaning in the direction of sustainable practices, we can be part of a solution to some of these problems that we face in the world. As far as climate change, I believe that it is real, and substantially aggravated by our actions. Whether you think it is a problem or not, shouldn't you look at it from a risk management point of view. What are the chances of your house burning down, or your boat sinking?. If these things have value to you, you insure them against damage or loss even though it seems unlikely to happen. Yet instead of taking sensible precautions to mitigate the risks if the scientific community is right, people want to vilify almost all scientists and the scientific method. Do you honestly believe that there is zero chance that 97% of scientists in the field are right, or is there some quantifiable chance that they are right? What would it be? 1% 2% or even a 5% chance that the people who have dedicated their lives to the research are correct in this matter. Even if you accept that there is a small chance that humanity has upset the natural balance enough to cause the kind of catastrophe we may be facing, then you should be willing to pay the small price needed to insure against that risk.
Finally, I find the idea that the vast majority of climate scientists are in a conspiracy to promote funding or a political agenda to be totally absurd. The ones that I have met were freezing their butts off for less pay than I made, even though they had a significant education advantage. One took a 50% pay cut for 5 or 6 years to work on a project that interested him.
__________________
Tilting at windmills...sigh, always tilting at windmills
IceDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2013, 10:21   #447
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDog View Post
Thanks for an interesting discussion on reef systems and climate change. I don't delude myself that a cruising sailboat is very environmentally friendly, but this discussion has made me rethink how I will approach my sailboat project and my upcoming cruise. I am going to upgrade the solar panels on the boat significantly and install a robust LifeP04 battery bank to provide adequate power so that I can for instance support using an electric dinghy motor and hopefully never need to use the engine or a fossil fuel generator simply to make electricity. Now if I could only figure out where to hang a pallet load of solar panels on the boat, maybe I could go electric propulsion...

People don't change overnight or even over a year or two. By leaning in the direction of sustainable practices, we can be part of a solution to some of these problems that we face in the world. As far as climate change, I believe that it is real, and substantially aggravated by our actions. Whether you think it is a problem or not, shouldn't you look at it from a risk management point of view. What are the chances of your house burning down, or your boat sinking?. If these things have value to you, you insure them against damage or loss even though it seems unlikely to happen. Yet instead of taking sensible precautions to mitigate the risks if the scientific community is right, people want to vilify almost all scientists and the scientific method. Do you honestly believe that there is zero chance that 97% of scientists in the field are right, or is there some quantifiable chance that they are right? What would it be? 1% 2% or even a 5% chance that the people who have dedicated their lives to the research are correct in this matter. Even if you accept that there is a small chance that humanity has upset the natural balance enough to cause the kind of catastrophe we may be facing, then you should be willing to pay the small price needed to insure against that risk.
Finally, I find the idea that the vast majority of climate scientists are in a conspiracy to promote funding or a political agenda to be totally absurd. The ones that I have met were freezing their butts off for less pay than I made, even though they had a significant education advantage. One took a 50% pay cut for 5 or 6 years to work on a project that interested him.
What about towing a dedicated solar platform? Maybe a small dingy covered in Solar panals..might work. good luck
__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2013, 10:50   #448
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,942
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
You don't need to shout at the climate -change-sceptics or shout and lable an opposing viewpoint as a denier or Nazi.

Thats the typical political approach of shouting down the oposition. Is it any wonder many are skeptical with your approach.
[the Nazi remark was just to respond to someone who had inexplicably shifted into Obama-bashing mode; I was suggesting that maybe the next comment would "Godwin" the thread with a Nazi reference.]

I take full responsibility for my own tone... blame me if it offends, cos yes I can be an arse. So, sorry to anyone that I've annoyed.

The ignorance at the base of most denier arguments is deeply frustrating. It's sometimes hard for me to be civil with people who are content to spew the same discredited arguments over and over. You can take a point, (eg "Climategate"), show clearly how thoroughly it's been discredited, the deniers simply leave off for the moment, then the argument pops up again. It's a giant game of logical whack-a-mole; the PR geniuses who crafted the anti-scientist, anti-global-warming arguments and strategies have done their jobs well.

Getting past my tone, what response do you have to my points? Cos I don't think you'd use my tone as the sole reason for ignoring the argument, right?
__________________
Lake-Effect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2013, 13:26   #449
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

I don't really use CF as my basis for any real science or life answer. Those that have been spending so much of thier time posting long replies here that feel so much passision on the "subject" I feel should be spending time where it is useful, which isn't on a sailing forum.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2013, 09:01   #450
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,942
Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I don't really use CF as my basis for any real science or life answer. Those that have been spending so much of thier time posting long replies here that feel so much passision on the "subject" I feel should be spending time where it is useful, which isn't on a sailing forum.
I'd much rather see this forum's conversations centered on sailing and directly related subjects as well... but this particular thread swerved into the global warming "controversy" starting with comment #2. Some might even say it was the OP.

This thread should have been plopped into the political purgatory right from that point but it wasn't, which suggests that the moderators thought the topic was worthy of a hearing, at least at this time, because it bears directly on the OP's subject.

I apologize for being a longwinded preachy gasbag ; I won't apologize for striking out at willful ignorance.
__________________

__________________
Lake-Effect is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Caribbean, coral, reefs, caribbean

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.