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Old 10-02-2013, 19:38   #346
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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Originally Posted by Tar34 View Post
Your sermon on beleaguered scientists, losing immunity from outside influences because of because of the "grave strains" of securing funding is not the issue.
The issue is scientists, particularly those steeped in "dogma" and insulated from outside review have been caught fudging data, which when reviewed for publication, to the exclusion of contrary evidence, and in collusion with like minded "scientists", gave imprimatur to it's false conclusions. These "scientific" publications were accepted by none other than the IPCC by proclamation nihil obstat.
For anyone following this thread and truly interested what lay at the political core of this debate, In Summary here: ClimateGate Star Michael Mann Courts Legal Disaster - Forbes
Thanks for that.

The article and the comments contain a rogues gallery of some of the most discredited deniers, many of whom are linked to the tobacco and oil lobby through the Heartland Institute.

The comment just about sums it up.

Quote:
Brian Teter 4 months ago
I can’t figure out who to believe on this issue of Climategate.

Larry Bell who earns a living as the director of Adams Resources & Energy Inc
(a wholesale supplier of oil and natural gas), writer, and Risk Manager of Frontier Oil Corporation.
or
Pulitzer Prize winning fact checkers at Politifact.com and the 8 investigations by House of Commons Science and Technology Committee (UK); Independent Climate Change Review (UK); International Science Assessment Panel (UK); Pennsylvania State University first panel and second panel (US); United States Environmental Protection Agency (US); Department of Commerce (US); National Science Foundation (US) who all exonerated the researchers of falsifying data.
I had intended on spending more time on your post and this article, but I really do not have the time.

Try this for some more information relevant to the lawsuit.

Affidavits in Michael Mann Libel Suit Reveal Astonishing Facts About Tim Ball Associate John O'Sullivan | DeSmogBlog
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Old 10-02-2013, 19:45   #347
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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So, CO2 causes acidity of seawater = bad for coral.

Does this mean alkaline air pollution complexes emitted from cement production, oil shale processing and power plants = good for coral?
What compounds would those be?

Quote:
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has set new rules, more than a decade in the making, to curtail air pollution from cement kilns, a huge source of toxic mercury that ends up in fish.

The rule, according to Clean Air Watch will eliminate more than 8 tons of mercury air pollution, and will also significantly reduce soot (a.k.a. particulates); hydrocarbons; sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides and other acid gases; and toxic gases. Soot, hydrocarbons and sulfur dioxide contribute to smog, and sulfur dioxide also causes acid rain. Each of these pollutants will be reduced 78-97% under the new rule (with the exception of nitrogen oxides, which is slated for just a 5% reduction).



Read more: Cement Plant Mercury Pollution - Air Pollution from Cement Kilns - The Daily Green
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Old 10-02-2013, 19:50   #348
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

<there may be other reasons>

Funny, that's what I thought too.

If your government sharpen up their ideas we might even save you lot a few spare beds, and shuffle you to the front of the queue.

It's probably fitting that Australia leads the charge into a new uninhabitable future: it seems possible that it led the charge on human induced environmental and climate change, 40 to 70 thousand years ago. ("Mere humans", indeed!)

In fact, I seem to vaguely recall a time when it did not have deserts, post human arrival. And LOTS of big animals.
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Old 10-02-2013, 20:58   #349
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Alkaline pollutants;

http://mivana.emu.ee/orb.aw/class=fi...mets_36-11.pdf
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Old 10-02-2013, 21:11   #350
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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Originally Posted by Tar34 View Post
The issue is scientists, particularly those steeped in "dogma" and insulated from outside review have been caught fudging data, which when reviewed for publication, to the exclusion of contrary evidence, and in collusion with like minded "scientists", gave imprimatur to it's false conclusions.
"Climategate" as proof of collusion ... is bullsh!t. Purest Bullsh!t.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climati...il_controversy

(yes it's just one link, yes it's Wikipedia, but there are 136 independent citation links at the bottom of the article that you can investigate yourself)

It was some stolen emails, cherry-picked to portray an internal squabble over the finer points of data processing into some huge climate fraud. Not one of several investigations into the assertions has concluded that any of the data, or the final conclusion, were fabricated, incorrect, or didn't meet acceptable standards for scientific rigour.

The real utility of "Climategate" is to show just how far the detractors would go to sow dissension and confusion over the issue of climate change.

A preponderance, a supermajority of the world's scientists who study climate are essentially in agreement that human activity is materially affecting the earth's climate.

How you choose to respond to the information is your own affair, but it benefits no-one to wave the facts away like a bad smell, or accuse the experts of conspiracy.
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Old 10-02-2013, 21:19   #351
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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Read it.

Alkaline pollution is destroying a carbon sink.

How much coral is there in Estonia?

Quote:
In conclusion, the long-term high level of alkaline dust and fly ash pollution has affected growth conditions of trees, resulting in a decrease of the wax layer and degradation of its microstructure in Norway spruce needles.
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Old 10-02-2013, 21:52   #352
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

And in any case, how many cement works would we have to build to offset two to three trillion tons of carbon dioxide, which is what current declared oil company reserves would release into the atmosphere?

That's four hundred tons of gas to be neutralised for every man woman and child on the planet.

Not to stop warming, just to stop further acidification, not already in train.

I don't think that's a programme even Chairman Mao could have loved.
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Old 10-02-2013, 21:53   #353
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

So its a matter of balance, dilution and concentration.
Both Acid and Alkaline rain are bad where concentrations are high but what is the global effect?
CO2 causes acidification of oceans. Alkaline Farm fertilizer causes a bloom.
Does dredging that stirs lime from the seabed have overall good or bad effect?? Could international action reverse the acidification?
Bad for the immediate proximity but maybe good after dilution??

Argue as much as you like but I'm a long way off deciding the significance or not of CO2 pollution.
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Old 10-02-2013, 22:05   #354
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

It seems I posted while you were typing, so I guess by now you'll have realised that your newly proposed offset mechanism is out by three or more orders of magnitude
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Old 10-02-2013, 22:12   #355
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
So its a matter of balance, dilution and concentration.
Both Acid and Alkaline rain are bad where concentrations are high but what is the global effect?
CO2 causes acidification of oceans. Alkaline Farm fertilizer causes a bloom.
Does dredging that stirs lime from the seabed have overall good or bad effect?? Could international action reverse the acidification?
Bad for the immediate proximity but maybe good after dilution??

Argue as much as you like but I'm a long way off deciding the significance or not of CO2 pollution.
Geo-engineering is a concept best left to Star Trek movies.

CO2 is not really a pollutant. It is necessary for plant growth WITHIN LIMITS. SOx is a pollutant; it is just a bad compound in the environment.

O2 is necessary for human life WITHIN LIMITS.
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Old 10-02-2013, 22:46   #356
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

<< the oceanic uptake of CO2 .... accounts for approximately one-quarter to one-third of the CO2 released from all human activities* into the atmosphere since 1800>>
<< the oceans have accumulated 112 (±17)petagrams (trillion tonnes) of
Carbon ... since the beginning of the industrial era, or 118 (±19)
29 Pg C between 1800 – 1994>>

Source:
Scientific Synthesis of the Impacts of Ocean Acidification on Marine Biodiversity, 2009.

Presented to the Convention on Biological Diversity ISBN: 92-9225-168-6




The same paper claims:



<< Ocean acidification is irreversible on timescales of at least tens of thousands of years>>



- which I found sobering, given that the general tone of the paper is fairly restrained and other claims do not seem extravagant or unsubstantiated.

For those late to the discussion: a problem with acidification is that it applies everywhere: there is nowhere for coral to hide.

Another problem is that other marine organisms are affected: including everything with a shell.

ON EDIT: That doesn't just affect the guy in the French restaurant tucking into his Coquilles Saint-Jacques; it affects the small stuff which feeds the slightly bigger stuff: even diatoms have shells, and several of the things which direcly or indirectly feed salmon, mackerel, herring, cod and baleen whales are among the species likely to be badly affected.



I'm glad I found the datum quoted at the top, because I've been wondering roughly what the proportion might be, and even resigning myself to dusting off some basic chemistry books and having a go at calculating it from the volume of the oceans and the pH change.
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:41   #357
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

The take up of Co2 into the ocean is not just by the water mass alone, no different to land-bound greenery it's an important part of photosynthesis of marine organisms that reside there, hence the ocean isn't just a Co2 sink (no pun intended) there's a living purpose there.

This whole scientific debate evolves around opinion of some very qualified people muddied by tainted evidence from those with a barrow to push, in the middle of all this are the Google experts searching for anything to support an opinion.

The world WILL heal with or without us, surprising to some it doesn't have an emotional attachment to us.

The world is essentially bankrupt in more ways than one, does anyone here seriously believe that governments will dedicate the Trillions of Euro's, Peso's or Dollars needed when they're own people are largely unemployed and hungry? Have a rethink peeps, at base level we can all do our bit but don't expect it to go much further than that, we are mainly observers with little power.

Our country Australia is spending $15million on rebuilding a road in Kiribati, we just had massive flooding on the east coast the fed's allocated $1mill to QLD and another to NSW just watch the peoples reaction when that hits the fan!!!!!
Just my opinion.....
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Old 11-02-2013, 02:00   #358
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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.......................Our country Australia is spending $15million on rebuilding a road in Kiribati, we just had massive flooding on the east coast the fed's allocated $1mill to QLD and another to NSW just watch the peoples reaction when that hits the fan!!!!!

Just my opinion.....
All part of the guilt trip that Australia as a developed country should take responsibility for our excessive emmissions that is raising the sea levels impacting on Kiribiti.

Build a road on a moving unstable coral atoll that will be eroded again down the track. At least the Australian Government feels good about it, not so sure it is necessarily the best way to spend $15mill dollars in the interests of the people of Kiribiti.

Hope you are surviving the Ice Age in Croatia, Frank.
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Old 11-02-2013, 02:28   #359
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Yer ice on deck today, i'm running the new Thruster tie-ins this morning, i need to go to Split to pick up some shorter Teleflex cables then all will be good and complete for that project, it's 10:30am i'll start soon c'cept windchill is cutting! For an Aussie that is!
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:31   #360
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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I'll eat the cows, you take care of the worms!
Don, you must have heard the joke about when the ice-fisherman was asked the secret to his success, spat the wriggling mass out in his hand and said "you gotta keep the worms warm"

There ya go Jedi.
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