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Old 09-02-2013, 08:00   #271
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Theocratic Medievial throw back,

I love that one, That I must admit, is a Classic, Well done,
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:53   #272
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
I viewed your suggested reading and smiled, now please take the time when you can and watch Bob's Torpedoes, Bob is a straight talking Aussie scientist.
This Bob Carter?

Climate change sceptic Bob Carter continues to ply his trade | Bob Ward | Environment | guardian.co.uk

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Bob Carter (Robert M. Carter) is a retired Australian marine geologist and a paid AGW denier. He is also an adjunct (unpaid[1]) Research Fellow at the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University" in Australia,[2] and on the academic advisory council of the denialist front group, the Global Warming Policy Foundation.[3] Carter is on the payroll of the Heartland Institute, which itself is funded by polluting industries (Exxon, Scaife Foundations and Koch Family Foundations, etc).[4]

According to the Sydney Morning Herald in 2007, Carter was "on the research committee at the Institute of Public Affairs, a think tank that has received funding from oil and tobacco companies, and whose directors sit on the boards of companies in the fossil fuel sector" and believed, SMH said, that "the role of peer review in scientific literature was overstressed."
Bob Carter - SourceWatch

He is one of the best scientists money can buy, and he is bought and paid for.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:53   #273
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Just published (Jan. 29, 2013)

New evidence reveals that many Caribbean coral reefs have either stopped growing or are on the threshold of starting to erode.
Caribbean coral reefs have declined pretty close to the threshold value for coral cover that our analyses identify as the break-even point. And a lot of Caribbean coral reefs -- maybe half of them -- have been at or below that threshold value for the past 25-30 years.

Caribbean-wide decline in carbonate production threatens coral reef growth : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group

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Old 09-02-2013, 11:11   #274
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Are parts of the Caribbean Reefs managed as in no go zones, restricted fishing for both commercial and recreational activities, seasonal fishing bans, anchoring restrictions, tourist areas and such ?
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:25   #275
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Just published (Jan. 29, 2013)

New evidence reveals that many Caribbean coral reefs have either stopped growing or are on the threshold of starting to erode.
I daresay thats from over fishing and destruction for tourist souvenirs, aquariums etc.

By the way, how can something be on the threshold of erosion? who the hell determines that? Its either eroding or its not. Anthing else is just a guess.

The coral in the Caribbean is pretty hopless... but I think its from poor management and polution etc not from glabal warming. Thats just an excuse for non sustainable development to occur: "OH we can rip the crap outta the reef, but we are not destroying it, whats destroying it is global warming..."

The Bahamas are as bad if not worse where all the cruisers and tourists line up for Conch chowder/ salad etc. surely they must realize they are raping the reefs, corals and sea beds?
the Caribbean, especialy down south has huge piles of conch shells, steadily growing, as they are pillaged. And what do conch do? clean the algy off the coral so the coral can grow.

Dont blame global warming, blame our own gluttony!


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Old 09-02-2013, 12:41   #276
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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1... By the way, how can something be on the threshold of erosion?
2 ... Its either eroding or its not.
3 Anything else is just a guess ...
1. A threshold is the quantitative point at which an action is triggered, especially a lower limit.
By one definition: “a level, point, or value above which something is true or will take place and below which it is not or will not”

2. That’s a logical Fallacy (false dilemma).
In this case: it's always eroding and growing. The question is, at a net positive rate, or a net negative rate.

3. But, an educated guess, based on evidence (an established trend), and informed by theoretical knowledge.

The new analysis, published January 29 in Nature Communications, suggests that when the amount of live coral in a reef drops below about 10 percent, erosion begins to outpace growth of new reef structures. Many Caribbean coral reefs are approaching this tipping point.

Professor Chris Perry of the University of Exeter, who led the research, said: "Our estimates of current rates of reef growth in the Caribbean are extremely alarming. Our study goes beyond only examining how much coral there is, to also look at the delicate balance of biological factors which determine whether coral reefs will continue to grow or will erode. Our findings clearly show that recent ecological declines are now suppressing the growth potential of reefs in the region, and that this will have major implications for their ability to respond positively to future sea level rises.

"It is most concerning that many coral reefs across the Caribbean have seemingly lost their capacity to produce enough carbonate to continue growing vertically, whilst others are already at a threshold where they may start to erode. At the moment there is limited evidence of large-scale erosion or loss of actual reef structure, but clearly if these trends continue, reef erosion looks far more likely.

New evidence highlights threat to Caribbean coral reef growth: Many Caribbean coral reefs are starting to erode

http://geography.exeter.ac.uk/media/...troduction.pdf
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:42   #277
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

The Great Barrier Reef isn't so healthy either.

Great Barrier Reef loses more than half its coral cover | Environment | guardian.co.uk

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Dont blame global warming, blame our own gluttony!
They're both sorta the same thing, and regardless of exact cause, the solutions are mostly the same, right?
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:57   #278
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Lagoon

Do you still stand by your statement yesterday that "the ratio of Co2 / O2 at ground level has never ever changed"

Because you qualified it with "by all means correct me if i'm wrong"

I tried to do that, but you have made no further reference to the matter.

I notice, looking back, that the questions you went on to ask me were the same questions you'd already asked Jackdale.

I'm puzzled that after your discussion with him you then went on to make the statement above.

The basic misapprehension suggests you hadn't taken any notice of his answers, or of the authoritative sources he linked to.

Hence my curiosity as to whether you were asking me the same questions with the intention, again, of turning your back on the answers?

-----

As regards your plaintive message

"Regarding your large increases question, i simply asked the question 'has our mix of gases changed'? My second part to that question was 'what is the constant that Co2 ratios are based on'?

You misjudge me. "

I don't understand how you've interpreted my point.

What I was responding to was your implication that CO2 levels could not be a problem, because we could still light fires and breathe perfectly well.

in your words,

<< So combustion has suffered? Our fires don't burn so bright? We are short on breathe?>>

My point was that you incorrectly reason that because there are no gross indications of excessive CO2, then there can be no problem associated with CO2 rise. More specifically, with the RATE of CO2 rise.

Tar makes, on the face of it, a different and rather flamboyant point, reaching back hundreds of millions of years into PRE-history, when the whole planetary system was unrecognisably different, to effectively say "nothing to see here, we've been here before". Why not reach back a bit further, to when there was no oxygen?

In a crude sense, you're both demonstrating similar logical fallacies.

Yours, Lagoon, seems to me a bit like responding to an observation that Greece's economy is in freefall by saying "Show me the corpses with the protruding ribs", and Tar's is a bit like saying "Greece's economy was a whole lot smaller in 1200BC, and yet they got by just fine"
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Old 09-02-2013, 13:36   #279
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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They're both sorta the same thing, and regardless of exact cause, the solutions are mostly the same, right?
No. Developed countries are doing far better than the developing countiries wheich are destroying their environments and hiding behind the smoke screen of the developed countries scientists.

The solution is to stop blaming every other thing and start blaming the people who commit trash to the deep, and destory their reefs by over fishing. Cathing wild fish instead of farming them is really something that should have stopped. we certainly eat very little wild meat and game but have sucessfully farmed animals now for quite some time....
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Old 09-02-2013, 15:03   #280
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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Are parts of the Caribbean Reefs managed as in no go zones, restricted fishing for both commercial and recreational activities, seasonal fishing bans, anchoring restrictions, tourist areas and such ?
Yes

Example - BVIs very few anchorages, lots of mooring balls.

and

Quote:
And a very large proportion of all of the corals (roughly a quarter to a half, depending on location) in BVI died in 2005 from extreme high regional temperatures caused by global warming.
Another factors are recognized as well. It is not just one thing.

Restoring British Virgin Islands
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Old 09-02-2013, 15:07   #281
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

At this point much the heat being retained by the Earth is being absorbed by the oceans. Water is a much better conductor of heat than air.



That is in additional to absoprtion of CO2 into the water resulting in acidification.
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Old 09-02-2013, 15:48   #282
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

That's a very sobering datum, Jackdale, thanks for posting it.

People presenting such data find themselves on the horns of a dilemma: in this instance: whether to present the "Ocean" figure to three significant figures.

Clearly the figure is not knowable to that degree of accuracy, but if the figure is rounded, as it should be, here's the problem: (given that some of the other figures are small)

The total will not add up to 100, providing ammunition for the debunkists, who specialise in quibbling while Rome burns.

(An example earlier in the thread: a scientific paper talks of inaccurate data still being useful. A debunkalist from this forum climbs all over it, gleeful and triumphant.

That's like telling your bank manager to p*ss off because he can't tell you your current overdraft to the nearest ten dollars when he rings to say "listen, buster, you've gone several thousand dollars into the red, and you don't have an overdraft facility"

It wouldn't matter if he didn't have the figure closer than a hundred dollars. You still need to deposit a whole bunch of cash. While you're working on that, he can come up with a better answer)

- - - - -

We will NEVER have exact data on this stuff, no matter how much scientific progress we make, because there is no such thing as perfection in an analogue world.
Much less, a complicated analogue world.

If the information was presented to scientists, each figure would be accompanied by an error band. Going into this much detail for general consumption is a losing game.

However if I had been the graphic artist preparing the chart, I would personally have given each circle a fuzzy rather than sharp boundary, with the thickness of fuzz in proportion to the expected error band. And appended "ish" after "93.4"
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Old 09-02-2013, 15:56   #283
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Troup Said: (An example earlier in the thread: a scientific paper talks of inaccurate data still being useful. A debunkalist from this forum climbs all over it, gleeful and triumphant.

That's right Troup it's not the accuracy of the data that matters, it's the seriousness of the the assumptions......
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Old 09-02-2013, 15:57   #284
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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No. Developed countries are doing far better than the developing countiries wheich are destroying their environments and hiding behind the smoke screen of the developed countries scientists.
Have a look here:

CO2 emissions (metric tons per capita) | Data | Table

(click on a year to sort by amount)

Per-capita the western countries produce around 5 times the CO2 of developing countries. This corresponds roughly with consumption, which can also be found on other tables on that site (left-hand selector). Fuel price tells the story of who's encouraging conservation and who's not.
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Old 09-02-2013, 15:59   #285
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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The Great Barrier Reef isn't so healthy either.

Great Barrier Reef loses more than half its coral cover | Environment | guardian.co.uk



They're both sorta the same thing, and regardless of exact cause, the solutions are mostly the same, right?
Another typical dramatic headlines regularly used.

If one reads the article and has dived all over (another similar headline posted earlier on bleaching at Keppel islands) the GBR for over 40 years this has happened before particularly with the crown of thorns starfish. Plagues is the most commonly used media terminology to convey the most fear.

Scientists need to regularly get their message out to enable funding.

No doubt in some overused tourist areas the corals are struggling but to apply the headline to the whole of the GBR is a total stretch. This is not to say the GBR does not need good management particularly in the tourist areas otherwise we could get to a similar situation as some parts of the Caribbean or Asia.
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