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Old 07-02-2013, 21:39   #181
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Tar

I have never understood the denial camp's fascination with Al Gore. He is good looking and rich. but really ....

I do not rely on Gore, I rely in science.

Good night.

BTW I need reliable peer-reviewed source for your ice core contention. That is what science uses.
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Old 07-02-2013, 21:44   #182
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Great Barrier Reef Threatened

How we've failed the Great Barrier Reef | News.com.au
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Old 07-02-2013, 21:58   #183
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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World Heritage Commission, WWF are always guaranteed to generate a specific point of view.

Keppel Is in the picture suffered regular bleaching over last 40 years. Also suffers from some siltation in years of big floods in the Fitzroy river that has happened forever. If that is a recent picture it shows an excellent staghorn coral garden regrown from previous event , recently bleached.

It will come back.
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Old 07-02-2013, 22:11   #184
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

I had never run across this thread before. It is almost as entertaining as watching FOX news and MSNBC pissing and moaning at each other. I have a college age son that tells me that many of his peers think that in their life time( I am glad I am old) the world population will shrink by 2/3 due to wars pestulance and climate collapse. Many of them think that the only way to stay ahead of it all is survival training and lots of ammunition. It makes me wonder if the old image of grey bearded bible thumpers with THE END IS NEAR signs will give way to the 20 something crowd with ARs or AKs and a sign saying WE WILL MAKE OUR OWN WAY. I wonder if the fringe elements of both sides will ever come together. OH WELL_______Grant.
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Old 07-02-2013, 22:25   #185
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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Fairly standard blurb for the World Heritage Commission and the WWF.
If that photo shown of the shallow staghorn coral garden in the Keppel islands is recent it shows recently bleached corals that have regrown from previous events.
The Keppel Islands also suffer impact by siltation with large flooding events from the nearby Fitzroy river that has occurred since the reefs were formed.
I recall Len Zell was involved when the naturally occurring Crown of Thorns Starfish were found in Plague proportions around 40 years ago in tourist areas initially around Cairns. It can be found all over the GBR on virtually any dive if you know where to look.
Various theories were developed one of which was that spearfishermen spearing Maori Wrasse a predator of C of T was a cause. Kept many a Professor in annual dive trip surveys to the reef over the years.
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Old 07-02-2013, 22:57   #186
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

"Climate Change" and "Global Warming" are terms that do not reflect the changes that industrialization has brought to the planet.

These changes result in a climate that has more energy.

More energy in the climate means more extreme climate.

Heat waves are hotter and longer. Droughts and drier and more sustained. Floods are more common and wetter. Storms and tornadoes are more common and stronger. And so on...
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Old 07-02-2013, 23:06   #187
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Facts? Facts?

It's striking that one side of this argument is coming up with pejorative terms for people with opposing views, like "Sheeple", "Acolytes", "Al GorZeera", "religious", "tree huggers", "chicken-little hysteria", "Pope Gore and his coterie of priests",
and insulting advice along the lines of "do not bother with facts .... do not attempt to think".

And yet the only accusations of 'ad hominem' argument come (justifiably, but it was only a one word mischaracterisation) from the chief offender among those responsible for the list quoted above.

I'm indebted to that person for showing the quality of his 'facts' on this very forum, last year.

He posted a link to a graph, published on the blog of one Steven Goddard.
The graph was of Arctic Ice Extents, and at the time Steven posted it, it showed the ice coverage in April 2012 was (Shock, Horror) above average !

The title of the blog was "Arctic Ice Area Approaching Abnormally High Range"

Now that's a very strange definition of abnormally high. The level, less than 1 standard deviation above the mean, was perfectly normal. According to statistical probability it should exceed that level ten to twelve months in sixty. In point of fact, it hadn't managed to exceed that level even ONCE in sixty months.

Nevertheless, on a blog curiously mistitled "Real Science" (George Orwell would have been impressed) that was enough for unconfined joy.
I won't use the "A" word from the above list to characterise Steven's supporters, because it would be demeaning to me and unduly complimentary of them.

Everyone was absolutely ecstatic, exultantly high-fiving and crowing at the stupidity of those concerned at ice loss, described as "moonbats". Global warming was described as "dead for sure" in a few more months.

When, five months later, the amount of ice had collapsed to a level which has never been recorded, things had gone rather quiet on the topic.
Clearly this was not considered abnormal by the "Real Scientists".

It fell to between six and seven standard deviations below the mean, which is well below any zone where it is meaningful to assign a probability. In other words, its WAY beyond abnormal. It's catastrophic.

The estimable Steven's only comment when I pointed this out was to call me "Completely daft".

However I will credit him for publishing under his own name, and for not deleting my comments. I think both those things are really important.

You can see the discussion at
Arctic Ice Area Approaching Abnormally High Range | Real Science

and follow the link to the updated graph, of which I attach an annotated copy below

I can't think of a more extraordinarily flagrant and inept piece of data mining and cherry-picking than Steven's, and I'm grateful to you, Micah, for posting the link when you did. Because you posted it at a time when ice extent was already at an all time low, in the last week of August.

If, rather than blind acceptance of a tiny snippet presented with a clearly fixed agenda, you had undertaken a one minute check of the underlying "Facts", by following the live link to a source which your "Real Scientist" had chosen to substantiate his unreal claim, you would have seen that you were participating in a parody of "Real Science" at a level which would have had Gilbert and Sullivan gasping with envy.

Remembering your advice to "avoid being swept along by ideology and emotion", Micah, and reflecting on the intellectual company you evidently keep, I'm reminded of Wilde, when he wrote something to the effect that "I hate to take this man's advice; he needs it so badly for himself"
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Old 07-02-2013, 23:21   #188
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

I watched a Doco on SBS Two last night, Free to air Television here in Melbourne,

Gasland, It was called,

It was a Documentary on the Oil Fracking and Drilling in America to obtain oil and gas from underground,
The people in Rural area's would get a very lucrative offer to lease their land for drilling,

After a few years after the drilling, The water they have always drunk from their taps in their homes became unsuitable to drink, it smelt like turpentine, The people were and are getting sick,

It was very interesting that the water coming from their household internal taps which was their fresh water,

You could light the water with a match,

a flame would explode in the sink, It would be great to put out a house fire with that stuff, It would accelerate the fire,
Its no wonder they are sick,
The drilling companys supply fresh bottled water to the property owners that cant use their own water any more,

The USA EPA cant do any thing about it, As the law was changed in the favour of the drilling companys, overturning and overriding the federal freshwater and clean air laws that were in force, Protecting freshwater, The air and the environment,

President Bush signed these laws into effect in 1995. or there abouts,

This is greed on a major scale, when the people of a country dont matter any more, in persuit of the almighty dollar,

Genocide,

And it is spreading to Europe and Africa, Its Mega Billion Companys running it,

So us little people havent a hope in hell of stopping it,

People dying, Coral dying, Oceans polluted, the land dying, Its called COLLATERAL DAMAGE,

As Long as we are making Billions, None of that matters or is relevant,

Front page news in Melbourne Australia, 1956, Dont drink the milk, its radio active from the fallout from the Maralinga nuclear tests, But you can eat the meat from these cows,

Strange that all Gieger counters were recalled immediately from every where in Australia at the same time, avoiding the issue of radio active measurements,

Its also very strange that we have now a very high incidence of Cancers in the population,

My eldest daughter and my youngest daughters both had Lypmh Cancer, both survived, Both had it at approx the same time,

There is no cancer in mine or my wifes or my girlfriends family, Separated by a few years,
These two Daughters had no contact of any kind,

I believe in Rational discussion, and the truth,

But the truth can be hidden and buried if you push enough money across the table,

Money will make the worst problems dissapear, Or bury it in disinformation,

This is my opinion only,
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:13   #189
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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I had never run across this thread before. It is almost as entertaining as watching FOX news and MSNBC pissing and moaning at each other. I have a college age son that tells me that many of his peers think that in their life time( I am glad I am old) the world population will shrink by 2/3 due to wars pestulance and climate collapse. Many of them think that the only way to stay ahead of it all is survival training and lots of ammunition.
Many of them would be beleiving too much nonsense . But to be fair, if folks are peddled nonsense from a young age they will mostly turn into believers - just ask the Jesuits.

The Chinese are already worrying (and planning for) a decreasing population in around 30 years time. The problem is partly caused by their 1 child policy but mostly from simple increased prosperity, and most of that problem is about the imbalance in population age and not the actual numbers.

It doesn't take folks getting to western standards of consumption of shiney stuff for folks to switch from large numbers of children to (on average) less than replacement - mostly about no longer any economic need for children as a resource, especially in old age. and indeed higher numbers of children become an economic burden to the family. No great surprise that the rest of the world will therefore follow what the people in the west have done in breeding terms - we aren't fundamentaly different.

The rise in economic prosperity accross the world does not automatically correspond to an overall rise in consumption (whether unsustainable or not) as countries can now jump over (or quickly move through) stages of development that the west struggled to do......albeit IMO folks in the west should realise that their own economic model of mass consumption is not actually the greatest even for them - it works very well for some, but not for the majority. But it was ever thus .....Feudalism comes in many guises, and is surprisingly hard to shake off.

The coral? Well, they should simply be glad they ain't a chinese delicacy
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Old 08-02-2013, 04:49   #190
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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Unfortunately, we here in the West don't have a lot of control over what gets dumped in the oceans of the East.

It is because those out in the West feel it is OK to pee and poop in a bucket and then toss it in the water.

This floats out and works it's way down the coast, gets caught into the stream and works it's way over to OZ, around the cape and up the Horn crossing to the Carib and into the gulf stream, where it gets tossed out when the current turns east.

So in the end that poop floats and settles in the Northeast!

And while we are at it: whose responsibility was it it have killed the butterfly last year? Since you didn't it kept flapping its' wings and there is a big snow storm here today!
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:06   #191
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Caught just the end of a local (bermuda) tv news a few nights back. According to BIOS, our corals are thriving on the north flats. Apparently ours have adapted to slightly cooler water, us being firther north. Yes, I know about the Stream.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:17   #192
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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It is because those out in the West feel it is OK to pee and poop in a bucket and then toss it in the water.

This floats out and works it's way down the coast, gets caught into the stream and works it's way over to OZ, around the cape and up the Horn crossing to the Carib and into the gulf stream, where it gets tossed out when the current turns east.

So in the end that poop floats and settles in the Northeast!

And while we are at it: whose responsibility was it it have killed the butterfly last year? Since you didn't it kept flapping its' wings and there is a big snow storm here today!
Huh?
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:13   #193
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pirate Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
It is because those out in the West feel it is OK to pee and poop in a bucket and then toss it in the water.

This floats out and works it's way down the coast, gets caught into the stream and works it's way over to OZ, around the cape and up the Horn crossing to the Carib and into the gulf stream, where it gets tossed out when the current turns east.

So in the end that poop floats and settles in the Northeast!

And while we are at it: whose responsibility was it it have killed the butterfly last year? Since you didn't it kept flapping its' wings and there is a big snow storm here today!
I let this go: too easy.

Butterfly reference is pretty highbrow, Don.
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:26   #194
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

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The Yukon Territories hold massive amounts of the remains of Saber Tooth Tigers, Mammoths and other beasts that roamed the area eons ago. The area where I live was once, not long ago in geologic terms, under several mile thick sheets of ice. (seems like it is now). After the ice sheets retreated this whole area was a lake and apparently there was a navigable waterway from the Arctic ocean straight down to the Gulf of Mexico.

However, most of the worlds leading scientists say that the RATE of global climate change is the problem here. The earth is warming at a RATE never before experienced and that we are responsible for that change.

The global climate is in upheaval and we see that by ever increasing local phenomena, such as record temperatures, record rainfall in strong storms, etc. Temps. like +45 c in Saskatoon Saskatchewan for example and weeks of +30 deg temps in other areas that were more used to weeks of -30 c (and colder) temps.

Oh, by the way, that firestorm picture is not an unusual phenomenon. Anyone who has seen a forest fire will be familiar with them. And while I'm on that topic, a few years ago we had such massive forest fires in Northern Manitoba that the smoke stretched across the Arctic Ocean, down the Atlantic all the way to Florida and the Gulf of Mexico.

Not sure where I was going with this, but whatever...here it is.
We talk about record temperatures, but have not recorded them throughout history. late 1500's was the first ability to measure temp, but probably not used to record temps around the world The History of the Thermometer

So in conclusion, we can't exactly say that we are at record temps up or down becasuse our time measuring them is just a blip in the existence of the marble.
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:28   #195
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Re: More Bad News for Caribbean Coral Reefs

All we have proven is in the last couple of hundred years, temperatures have naturally fluctuated and chances are that they will continue.

there were times of freezing over and times of flooding throughout history and none of that was blamed on global warming due to man. it happens.

For us to think the temperatures should/will remain constant is lunacy as that has been proven not to be the case throughout history.
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