Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-12-2012, 06:55   #121
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 107
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I don't understand the " defends ones self and chase down the bad guys ". In English common law and its derivatives, you do not in general have an absolute right to " unreasonable force". Hence any ( repeat any ) action that results in a death will must likely land you in court, so that the "reasonable nature" of that defence action can be decided on . Many states also do not recognise a boat as your " castle " rather its comes under means of transport laws. It's not surprising there is a charge and no doubt a court will decide it the defendants actions led to the death of the burglar. ( its not clear I'd he was a burglar. )

You must set aside the idea that just because someone boards your boat, you then have the right to act in any way you see fit. You simply don't have that right.

Dave
Here in North Carolina, someone who forcefully enters your home, place of business or car is assumed to have 'felonoius intent' and the victim is allowed to use whatever means available to stop the assault. The intruder does not need to have a weapon. I am glad that in NC I do not have to second guess my actions in the event I have to defend my family. I'll look to John Wayne for my guidence, not Jane Fonda or Lady Gaga.
__________________

__________________
Morgan3820 is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 07:25   #122
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patient
It is quite ridiculous that Mr. Sommer is in jail right now for defending his property and potentially his life. A right that St. Lucians seem to take seriously and that is an understatement.

St. Lucia is very unique when it comes to self-defense. You see, St. Lucia is one of only seventeen countries in the entire world, that has the "right to self defense" constitutionalized, rather than just part of an evolving judicial system. Their Constitution is not that large either, only 18 sections, which makes the emphasis on self-defense just that much more potent.

From St. Lucia's Constitution itself:

Now think about that for a minute.

Self-defense is so important to the St. Lucians that they chose to include it in their Constitution. So, from a legal perspective, there's no case law to browse through, no law review to cite, no existing cases involving castle-doctrine to argue for or against. You instead have clear and defined language in your country's own constitution that declares that a death as result of protection of property exonerates you from liability. It honestly could not be more defined anywhere else in the world, that Mr. Sommers has the right to take ones life to protect his property, even if it was with his own bare hands.

...but he has been sitting in jail since June and some of you think that makes perfect sense.
He does not have the right to take another's life. He has the right to reasonable force. That is what the court will decide.

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 07:28   #123
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan3820

Here in North Carolina, someone who forcefully enters your home, place of business or car is assumed to have 'felonoius intent' and the victim is allowed to use whatever means available to stop the assault. The intruder does not need to have a weapon. I am glad that in NC I do not have to second guess my actions in the event I have to defend my family. I'll look to John Wayne for my guidence, not Jane Fonda or Lady Gaga.
And their my friends is the problem with the gun lobby in the US. Film stars !!


Keep that attitude to NC please. It doesn't apply elsewhere outside the US. This didnt happen in the US.
Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 07:32   #124
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,579
Images: 240
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

The Saint Lucia Constitution, as previously (accurately*) quoted by Patient (Post 112)

Specifically, Chapter 1, Section 2:

Protection of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms ➥ The Saint Lucia Constitution

Or ➥ http://www.csastlucia.org/docs/Const...aint_Lucia.pdf

* Though the Constitution is MUCH longer than 18 Sections. Chapter 1 contains 18 Sections.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 07:49   #125
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Late one night in the Caribbean I was dinghying home from a bar that sold me a BAD beer and I was feeling a little worse for wear...

I motored up to the stern of the boat and, as usual, cut my engine a ways off to gently drift to the swim platform. As I touched the swim platform I noticed it did need a bit of a clean, being the fastidious cleanliness feller I am, about that time I noticed I must have rearranged the winches in cockpit, and indeed at some time unknown rearranged the whole cockpit. As I was admiring my taste in cushions someone climbed out of the compainionway and asked what I was doing! I told him to get off my boat!

Thank God he wasnt a gun toter.
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 07:57   #126
Senior Cruiser
 
Rocketman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Naples, FL
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 400
Posts: 668
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Late one night in the Caribbean I was dinghying home from a bar that sold me a BAD beer and I was feeling a little worse for wear...

I motored up to the stern of the boat and, as usual, cut my engine a ways off to gently drift to the swim platform. As I touched the swim platform I noticed it did need a bit of a clean, being the fastidious cleanliness feller I am, about that time I noticed I must have rearranged the winches in cockpit, and indeed at some time unknown rearranged the whole cockpit. As I was admiring my taste in cushions someone climbed out of the compainionway and asked what I was doing! I told him to get off my boat!

Thank God he wasnt a gun toter.
He might have been a so called gun toter, in the condition you describe that you were in, you probably wouldn't have noticed if the guy had a gun or not.
Also how did this tread become about guns again, there is no report that the guy sitting in jail had a gun or used one in any way. I know that everone wants there to be no guns or everyone should have one. Mean while we argue about guns and the guy who seemingly did nothing wrong except defend his property WITHOUT a gun, sits in jail.
__________________
Rocketman is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 08:46   #127
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Late one night in the Caribbean I was dinghying home from a bar that sold me a BAD beer and I was feeling a little worse for wear...

I motored up to the stern of the boat and, as usual, cut my engine a ways off to gently drift to the swim platform. As I touched the swim platform I noticed it did need a bit of a clean, being the fastidious cleanliness feller I am, about that time I noticed I must have rearranged the winches in cockpit, and indeed at some time unknown rearranged the whole cockpit. As I was admiring my taste in cushions someone climbed out of the compainionway and asked what I was doing! I told him to get off my boat!

Thank God he wasnt a gun toter.
Thread drift alert!
Now I do find this funny, did you take long to sober up and find your own boat; did he find it funny and offer you a beer and a chat - I might have done in the circumstance.

OK back to St Lucia and the accursed!
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now  
Old 26-12-2012, 08:54   #128
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
He might have been a so called gun toter, in the condition you describe that you were in, you probably wouldn't have noticed if the guy had a gun or not.
Also how did this tread become about guns again, there is no report that the guy sitting in jail had a gun or used one in any way. I know that everone wants there to be no guns or everyone should have one. Mean while we argue about guns and the guy who seemingly did nothing wrong except defend his property WITHOUT a gun, sits in jail.
Err... he might have killed someone in doing so, doesn't that worry you a bit.

But I am mainly in the group of "we don't know WTF happened but someone is dead"; let's hope the law will resolve the reason for the death and justice (if required) is applied fairly.

The bigger issue to my mind, is the delay in delivering a trial and verdict but I note that St Lucia is probably no different than most other countries in this regard.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now  
Old 26-12-2012, 09:00   #129
Registered User
 
svBeBe's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: from Houston, TX; currently berthed in Barcelona, headed west
Boat: Amel SM 53 - BeBe
Posts: 946
Re: In prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
Just reminds me that there is another place I'll cross off my list of places to visit
We crossed St. Lucia off our list of places to visit in the EC several years ago. Been there 4 times; 1984, 1986, 2006 and 2007. Never again. Even the beautiful Pitons don't make it worth stopping there and dealing with the hostile locals. Just my opinion; others seem to love the place. I don't know why the ARC chooses to land there.

Judy
__________________
svBeBe is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 09:12   #130
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Remand duration for NSW, Australia 1998

More than 6 months less than 12 months 14% of those remanded
Over 12 months 10% of those remanded.
Table 2 http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/1/D/...22%7Dti172.pdf

One would think the more serious the charges the longer the remand time. I cant find stats for NSW for the time between arrest and hearing for murder, but I have some though its about 14 months average. I dont know if thats based on any fact, or just a feeling. The newspaper report of an arrest and the sentence hearing the next year...

So Sommer may be in for quite some time. Its a long time to go crazy... And very expensive for the family.
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 09:28   #131
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Can i ask why Australia is related with this isue??
__________________
neilpride is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 09:29   #132
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Remand duration for NSW, Australia 1998

More than 6 months less than 12 months 14% of those remanded
Over 12 months 10% of those remanded.
Table 2 http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/1/D/...22%7Dti172.pdf

One would think the more serious the charges the longer the remand time. I cant find stats for NSW for the time between arrest and hearing for murder, but I have some though its about 14 months average. I dont know if thats based on any fact, or just a feeling. The newspaper report of an arrest and the sentence hearing the next year...

So Sommer may be in for quite some time. Its a long time to go crazy... And very expensive for the family.
I don't have the figures but gut feeling tells me the time has blown out much more over the past 14 years. Locally the remand time for murder / manslaughter seems to be 2+ years.

No way (guilty or not) can long remand times be considered fair or just.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now  
Old 26-12-2012, 09:31   #133
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Can i ask why Australia is related with this isue??
Err... say some more
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now  
Old 26-12-2012, 09:42   #134
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,203
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Can i ask why Australia is related with this isue??
I believe it was presented as an minimum example of how long the guy could expect to be held for without bail before the full trial came up...
But I could be wrong...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline  
Old 26-12-2012, 09:46   #135
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 43 & S2 6.9
Posts: 963
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Perhaps one thing we can learn from this is that if you do encounter someone on your boat or trying to board your boat and do repel them, that you should probably contact the authorities.

Had he contacted them, it may have changed the appearance of the incident in the eyes of the authorities. Furthermore, its probably always best not to say any more than you need to when speaking to the police.
__________________

__________________
maytrix is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anchorage in South St Lucia Teej Atlantic & the Caribbean 3 03-01-2012 05:49
Crew Wanted: ARC 2011 Las Palmas to St. Lucia mct Crew Archives 4 26-09-2011 12:54



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.