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Old 25-12-2012, 09:49   #106
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by s/v 'Faith' View Post
Reading this thread, laying at anchor off a tropical island in the Caribbean on Christmas morning, it occurs to me that even my peers (or is it just the armchair "Sailors"?) do not believe I have the duty to my ship to defend her and her crew...

It is a strange world, this current "enlightened" ethos has created. I suppose the locals are to come aboard, take what they want (including doing as they please with female crew members?) and I am to consent to this?

May it never be that I have to, but I shall never concent to such a thing. IMHO no one worthy of the title "Captain" ever would.
I think we must be reading different threads .

I simply see folks pointing out that if you choose to visit somewhere that has the rule of law that you get both the benefits and the downsides to that - including no free pass on killing folks.

For me the downside of not being able to kill folks without consequence (even if only a long drawn out legal process to ascertain that it actually was "fair enuf") is outweighed by the fact that most other folks I will encounter will be similarly constrained . Not all, but most. For those "others" one has to be both prepared to deal with them and then to suck up the consequences. How each does that is IMO a matter for each to feel comfortable with - plus the practical issue of opportunity.

Gotta remember that the definition of "fair enuf" reasons may not be the same for others as for "you". The last thing "you" need is for own definition by others of "fair enuf" to be ok legally.

I think I have shared before on CF the late wife's dispute over a warranty issue on a Karaoke machine - and her geniunely held belief that it was a capital offence. and that after it was settled in her favour . I think I talked her out of that one (simply pragmatic rather than principle - if stuff like that had been a matter of principle I would never have married her. nor she me).........but I never put her on the spot over how things worked out .........I mentioned that simply because if life had turned out differently she / we could have been anchored nearby to many of you all .................Natural causes got her, go figure .
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Old 25-12-2012, 10:40   #107
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I simply see folks pointing out that if you choose to visit somewhere that has the rule of law that you get both the benefits and the downsides to that - including no free pass on killing folks.

:.
Cruising, to me, is about tourism. And that means learning about the country i am in, its history, culture, what the locals do, eat, and entertain themselves. Yes, I even do look at the odd Cathedral, and take the tour bus/train/shuttle and note the boring crap.
Part of the learning another culture is their legal system. Every constitution is different and the locals all back their own consitutions.
We cant take our own constitution with us, although many countires have tried(its called Extraterritoriality), for the time we are in another country not only should we learn but we MUST learn the law that effects us.

Whether its Key Wests "you must have flares in your dinghy", or the rules on self defense, we must respect them all. Respecting them is all part of the fun or being a tourist. The sailing means nout, its just our accomodation and means of movement.



Mark
(In Key West with a fully armed dinghy. By law!!!)
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Old 25-12-2012, 10:57   #108
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Cruising, to me, is about tourism. And that means learning about the country i am in, its history, culture, what the locals do, eat, and entertain themselves. Yes, I even do look at the odd Cathedral, and take the tour bus/train/shuttle and note the boring crap.
Part of the learning another culture is their legal system. Every constitution is different and the locals all back their own consitutions.
We cant take our own constitution with us, although many countires have tried(its called Extraterritoriality), for the time we are in another country not only should we learn but we MUST learn the law that effects us.

Whether its Floridas you must have flares in your dinghy, or the rules on self defense, we must respect them all. Respecting them is all part of the fun or being a tourist. The sailing means nout, its just our accomodation and means of movement.

Mark
(In Key West with a fully armed dinghy. By law!!!)
Everything you have said here is true and I feel that most of us respect the rules of any given country. What this has to do with the guy in jail, I am not sure.
If the story that has been presented is true, I do not feel that our fellow cruiser is being treated fairly. It may be time to make some noise, get some diplomate that needs to be reelected, involved. Also the press. I would hope that if this happened to me, someone would care enough to give a crap.
It sounds like the our fellow crusier used reasonable force to protect himself and property. It also sounds like the thief/drug dealer, was able to make it back to shore by swimming but later died. He couldn't have been to badly injured if he made it back to shore alive. What happened after he made it to shore? Did he have a heartattack or die from stab wounds? Who knows? We realy need more information.
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Old 25-12-2012, 11:13   #109
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
It may be time to make some noise, get some diplomate that needs to be reelected, involved. .
Then you have the Doctrine of Seperation of Powers. Politicians cant put preasure on the Judicary.

We better ask Southern Star about that one... But it means that no amount of noise is gunna help.
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Old 25-12-2012, 11:48   #110
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Death by Karaoke??? Is there a worse way to go?

Chris


Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I think we must be reading different threads .

I simply see folks pointing out that if you choose to visit somewhere that has the rule of law that you get both the benefits and the downsides to that - including no free pass on killing folks.

For me the downside of not being able to kill folks without consequence (even if only a long drawn out legal process to ascertain that it actually was "fair enuf") is outweighed by the fact that most other folks I will encounter will be similarly constrained . Not all, but most. For those "others" one has to be both prepared to deal with them and then to suck up the consequences. How each does that is IMO a matter for each to feel comfortable with - plus the practical issue of opportunity.

Gotta remember that the definition of "fair enuf" reasons may not be the same for others as for "you". The last thing "you" need is for own definition by others of "fair enuf" to be ok legally.

I think I have shared before on CF the late wife's dispute over a warranty issue on a Karaoke machine - and her geniunely held belief that it was a capital offence. and that after it was settled in her favour . I think I talked her out of that one (simply pragmatic rather than principle - if stuff like that had been a matter of principle I would never have married her. nor she me).........but I never put her on the spot over how things worked out .........I mentioned that simply because if life had turned out differently she / we could have been anchored nearby to many of you all .................Natural causes got her, go figure .
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Old 25-12-2012, 12:00   #111
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pirate Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Yes, no hesitation or guilt. The TV and the thief's life is of no concern, only the safety of crew and self, in that order. You don't know what his intentions are.

If the thief was on deck and turned and ran away... that's a different situation altogether... he hasn't invaded our home. He would be chased and held, as my wife and I have done several times over the years. No armchair analysis here. Turn, run, hide, smile and shake his hand, cowar and beg or bargain for our lives... NEVER.
The more 'Local' friends one makes the safer one is I've found... the word gets about...
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Old 25-12-2012, 12:26   #112
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

It is quite ridiculous that Mr. Sommer is in jail right now for defending his property and potentially his life. A right that St. Lucians seem to take seriously and that is an understatement.

St. Lucia is very unique when it comes to self-defense. You see, St. Lucia is one of only seventeen countries in the entire world, that has the "right to self defense" constitutionalized, rather than just part of an evolving judicial system. Their Constitution is not that large either, only 18 sections, which makes the emphasis on self-defense just that much more potent.

From St. Lucia's Constitution itself:

Quote:
2. Protection of right to life

(1) A person shall not be deprived of his life intentionally save in execution of the sentence of a court in respect of a criminal offence under any law or which he has been convicted.
(2) A person shall not be regarded as having been deprived of his life in contravention of this section if he dies as the result of the use to such extent and on such circumstances as are permitted by law, of such force as is reasonably justifiable-
a) for the defence of any person from violence or for the defence of a property;
b) in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent the escape of a person lawfully detained;
c) for the purpose or suppressing a riot, insurrection or mutiny; or
d) in order to prevent the commission by that person of a criminal offence.
or if he dies as the result of lawful act of war.
Now think about that for a minute.

Self-defense is so important to the St. Lucians that they chose to include it in their Constitution. So, from a legal perspective, there's no case law to browse through, no law review to cite, no existing cases involving castle-doctrine to argue for or against. You instead have clear and defined language in your country's own constitution that declares that a death as result of protection of property exonerates you from liability. It honestly could not be more defined anywhere else in the world, that Mr. Sommers has the right to take ones life to protect his property, even if it was with his own bare hands.

...but he has been sitting in jail since June and some of you think that makes perfect sense.
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Old 25-12-2012, 15:31   #113
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by Patient View Post
It is quite ridiculous that Mr. Sommer is in jail right now for defending his property and potentially his life. A right that St. Lucians seem to take seriously and that is an understatement.

St. Lucia is very unique when it comes to self-defense. You see, St. Lucia is one of only seventeen countries in the entire world, that has the "right to self defense" constitutionalized, rather than just part of an evolving judicial system. Their Constitution is not that large either, only 18 sections, which makes the emphasis on self-defense just that much more potent.

From St. Lucia's Constitution itself:



Now think about that for a minute.

Self-defense is so important to the St. Lucians that they chose to include it in their Constitution. So, from a legal perspective, there's no case law to browse through, no law review to cite, no existing cases involving castle-doctrine to argue for or against. You instead have clear and defined language in your country's own constitution that declares that a death as result of protection of property exonerates you from liability. It honestly could not be more defined anywhere else in the world, that Mr. Sommers has the right to take ones life to protect his property, even if it was with his own bare hands.

...but he has been sitting in jail since June and some of you think that makes perfect sense.
Some on CF thought that it made perfect sense to arrest a man that hauls boats for a living after he and a fellow had a dispute over payment for hauling a boat..go figure
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Old 25-12-2012, 15:43   #114
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by Patient View Post
Self-defense is so important to the St. Lucians that they chose to include it in their Constitution. So, from a legal perspective, there's no case law to browse through, no law review to cite, no existing cases involving castle-doctrine to argue for or against. You instead have clear and defined language in your country's own constitution that declares that a death as result of protection of property exonerates you from liability. It honestly could not be more defined anywhere else in the world, that Mr. Sommers has the right to take ones life to protect his property, even if it was with his own bare hands.

...but he has been sitting in jail since June and some of you think that makes perfect sense.
It makes sense because none us actually know WTF actually happened (could have been an argument over the price of coconuts, a gay porn shoot that went wrong or it could even be exactly as reported . But until the local judicial system works through the case no one will know - and even then we might not do! as IME facts when they get processed by a legal system don't always match what actually happened).

And he is in jail likely because as a cruiser he is a genuine flight risk.

All that does seem fair enuf to me. tough sh#t if it's "you" involved, but fair enuf.

The alternative is that someone gets to kill "you" whenever they feel like it for whatever "nice" reason they offer - with no questions asked ("That Mr Cruiser fella was trying to rape my Donkey" )...........I personally would not feel very safe in a country that worked like that because IME enough folks around who would very happily use that "loophole" and still sleep soundly at night. Whether or not they had a Donkey. or a Karaoke machine .
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Old 25-12-2012, 15:44   #115
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Death by Karaoke??? Is there a worse way to go?

Chris
Funny thing was she couldn't even sing . But fortunately she soon got bored .
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Old 25-12-2012, 18:09   #116
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

I'm new to this board.

Do all cruisers do this much posing when they're scared?
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Old 25-12-2012, 18:12   #117
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Lotsa posing is done here scared or not even full frontals i hear!
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Old 26-12-2012, 05:39   #118
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

I tried googling the story and didn't really find anything

But I just have to believe there is a lot more to the story that we don't know.
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Old 26-12-2012, 05:49   #119
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patient View Post
It is quite ridiculous that Mr. Sommer is in jail right now for defending his property and potentially his life. A right that St. Lucians seem to take seriously and that is an understatement.

St. Lucia is very unique when it comes to self-defense. You see, St. Lucia is one of only seventeen countries in the entire world, that has the "right to self defense" constitutionalized, rather than just part of an evolving judicial system. Their Constitution is not that large either, only 18 sections, which makes the emphasis on self-defense just that much more potent.

From St. Lucia's Constitution itself:



Now think about that for a minute.

Self-defense is so important to the St. Lucians that they chose to include it in their Constitution. So, from a legal perspective, there's no case law to browse through, no law review to cite, no existing cases involving castle-doctrine to argue for or against. You instead have clear and defined language in your country's own constitution that declares that a death as result of protection of property exonerates you from liability. It honestly could not be more defined anywhere else in the world, that Mr. Sommers has the right to take ones life to protect his property, even if it was with his own bare hands.

...but he has been sitting in jail since June and some of you think that makes perfect sense.
Constitutions are not beyond controversy. Look at yours (USA), for instance.
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Old 26-12-2012, 06:09   #120
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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So what you're saying... is that the crackhead who broke into our house two weeks ago... the same crackhead who my wife, daughter and I chased down for the police.... should now be released from prison because we didn't have the common law right to use force to catch him?? Wow... where do you live?

I guess I have more in common with previous poster Neil.
I never realized there were so many crack heads in Mass...
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