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Old 24-12-2012, 16:14   #76
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Any court proceeding involves buckets of FRUSTRATION, exacerbated by the pitiful cell conditions, there will be more to the story for sure and all anyone not directly involved can do is observe.

As we are heading to St Lucia on our way back home we are watching this story along with all others with great interest.

BUT the more i read of this stuff the more i'm leaning towards having a puppy dog on board.....

Generally criticising journalists is pretty stupid but then that's how most of these forums drift, BLAME someone else.......

A tough way for all involved to spend xmas, the yachtie', his family and the deceased's family alike..

Merry xmas all.
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Old 24-12-2012, 16:15   #77
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

In creating this thread I wished to give information to all boat-cruisers in the Caribbean (and other areas) on what can happen to any of us. The facts are relatively clear, and denied by nobody, including St Lucia officials we watched on TV news. As far as we know, there is no other version, except that Sommer is sued for murder. This circumnavigator was emprisoned after he was attacked on his boat and one thief died ashore after swimming from the attacked boat. He is in jail in reportedly unacceptable conditions, without a trial or a sustained accusation after 8 months.
The question is not to criticize or denigrate justice in this country. It is only to let know Eric Sommer, as well as local authorities, that he is not alone and that the cruisers' community is watching them and is very concerned about the incoming procedure. I think we would appreciate this in his situation.
I hope this thread will remain active and I'll give any new information I get from French or local sources. Thanks to all contributors.
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Old 24-12-2012, 16:41   #78
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Originally Posted by Kenomac

I'm in complete agreement with Neil on a previous post regarding his experience with the police and court systems both here in the USA and south of the USA border. Putting your faith in either is like placing your trust in pixie dust and unicorns. When things get ugly, reality is not like the Hollyweird movies where the good guys come racing to help you... one needs to be able to defend one's self and chase down the bad guys.

I've had way more than my fair share of dealing with criminals... especially during the past two months here in Massachusetts and California.
I don't understand the " defends ones self and chase down the bad guys ". In English common law and its derivatives, you do not in general have an absolute right to " unreasonable force". Hence any ( repeat any ) action that results in a death will must likely land you in court, so that the "reasonable nature" of that defence action can be decided on . Many states also do not recognise a boat as your " castle " rather its comes under means of transport laws. It's not surprising there is a charge and no doubt a court will decide it the defendants actions led to the death of the burglar. ( its not clear I'd he was a burglar. )

You must set aside the idea that just because someone boards your boat, you then have the right to act in any way you see fit. You simply don't have that right.

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Old 24-12-2012, 16:43   #79
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

The facts are never "relatively clear."
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Old 24-12-2012, 16:47   #80
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Re: In prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Each night i lock myself in with a custom made security screen that is difficult to breach and noisy to do so. It gives me time to light up the night with flares, and get on the VHF.

This screen type of thing is something i thoroughly recommend. It really is a ripper..

Where did you get/or have made your security screen?
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Old 24-12-2012, 16:47   #81
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Agree it depends whose RELATIVE is using them and for what purpose!
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Old 24-12-2012, 16:53   #82
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Re: In prison in St Lucia

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Where did you get/or have made your security screen?
It was just a normal screen door company.
I took the normal hatch in (its two pieces). A couple of companies said no because its not rectangular and theres two curved corners at the bottom. But i found a place and the owner said this is a Perfect job for old Sid. So Sid came out and had a look and said come back in a day and there it was $50 i think it was. Rediculously cheap. I think because it was an interesting job in an otherwise pretty standard business.

I use it every day the boat really stays much cooler.
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Old 24-12-2012, 17:05   #83
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I don't understand the " defends ones self and chase down the bad guys ". In English common law and its derivatives, you do not in general have an absolute right to " unreasonable force". Hence any ( repeat any ) action that results in a death will must likely land you in court, so that the "reasonable nature" of that defence action can be decided on . Many states also do not recognise a boat as your " castle " rather its comes under means of transport laws. It's not surprising there is a charge and no doubt a court will decide it the defendants actions led to the death of the burglar. ( its not clear I'd he was a burglar. )

You must set aside the idea that just because someone boards your boat, you then have the right to act in any way you see fit. You simply don't have that right.

Dave

So what you're saying... is that the crackhead who broke into our house two weeks ago... the same crackhead who my wife, daughter and I chased down for the police.... should now be released from prison because we didn't have the common law right to use force to catch him?? Wow... where do you live?

I guess I have more in common with previous poster Neil.
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Old 24-12-2012, 17:09   #84
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

There must be any number of similar circumstances to establish some precedence. I recall a documentary years ago about a Canadian cruiser who shot a person on another boat who was preparing to board and assault or kill him. I seem to remember the Canadian boat fled in order to avoid any charges or legal problems, and I understand the Greek(?) government was seeking to have him returned to face charges. Not trying to drift the thread, just see if anyone can recall the outcomes in other similar circumstances.
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Old 24-12-2012, 17:10   #85
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Re: In prison in St Lucia

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It was just a normal screen door company.
I took the normal hatch in (its two pieces). A couple of companies said no because its not rectangular and theres two curved corners at the bottom. But i found a place and the owner said this is a Perfect job for old Sid. So Sid came out and had a look and said come back in a day and there it was $50 i think it was. Rediculously cheap. I think because it was an interesting job in an otherwise pretty standard business.

I use it every day the boat really stays much cooler.
Did you fit something similar for you hatch openings? Or, does the companionway screen provide enough fresh air? Look's like a very good idea.
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Old 24-12-2012, 17:28   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac

So what you're saying... is that the crackhead who broke into our house two weeks ago... the same crackhead who my wife, daughter and I chased down for the police.... should now be released from prison because we didn't have the common law right to use force to catch him?? Wow... where do you live?

I guess I have more in common with previous poster Neil.
If I chased a law breaker down the street and as a result he was injured I could be sued. In my home I am entitied to reasonable force upto and including lethal force but only if it is reasonable. In general reasonable force is no more force then necessary to deter the invader. ( And only to deter him, not apprehend him or disable him ) Inside my house I have a stand my ground right. Outside it I do not. I have also no rights to then chase him down, that is a job for the police.

For example a burglar broke in and was stabbed by the house holder. ( With a big screwdriver ) The burglar was severely injured and successfully sued. On the grounds that the defence wasn't reasonable.
By the way the fact that someone is taking crack cocaine does not allow to treat him differently.
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Old 24-12-2012, 17:37   #87
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Re: In prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Did you fit something similar for you hatch openings? Or, does the companionway screen provide enough fresh air? Look's like a very good idea.
The companionway provides enough air.

In good weather I can leave the hatches on a second lock that raises them about one centimeter to allow air from forward... This gives great circulation at anchor.

When i am home at night i lock the large hatches, but i have small ones that people cant fit through.

I am not so worried about people dropping down into the boat from hatches above my bed... I think theres a strong psycological disincentive to put vulnerable feet down an unknown verticle hole. I have never heard of someone being attacked from that way.

The basic point is the comapanionway grille gives so much ventilation there can be no excuse to not locking up, except for disregarding security.



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Old 24-12-2012, 17:53   #88
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
If I chased a law breaker down the street and as a result he was injured I could be sued. In my home I am entitied to reasonable force upto and including lethal force but only if it is reasonable. In general reasonable force is no more force then necessary to deter the invader. ( And only to deter him, not apprehend him or disable him ) Inside my house I have a stand my ground right. Outside it I do not. I have also no rights to then chase him down, that is a job for the police.

For example a burglar broke in and was stabbed by the house holder. ( With a big screwdriver ) The burglar was severely injured and successfully sued. On the grounds that the defence wasn't reasonable.
By the way the fact that someone is taking crack cocaine does not allow to treat him differently.
Dave

The same laws here in Massachusetts regarding the stand your ground law. The crackhead did have a jumbo screwdriver on him, unknown to us at the time. After the chase, the police officer told me aside that if I "had been in fear for my life," lethal force can always be used without fear of being convicted or charged with murder. Basically.. it's better to be judged by 12, than to be carried by 6.

BTW: The best part of the ordeal was watching from behind as the crackhead crashed his stolen bike into the police cruiser and went down hard on the pavement. YES!
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Old 24-12-2012, 19:07   #89
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Its better than nothing. And thats what all cruiser have... Nothing.
Not to detract from the OP issue, but I have a request from all of the self-appointed experts on boat security…. Don’t talk about it on the internet.

Why would you give away secrets, weaknesses, opinions and dissent to the enemy?

Might as well paint all the boats pink and hang out a sign saying: Come and get us!

There are boats out there that have professional security plans and the last thing they would ever do is talk about them.
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Old 24-12-2012, 20:02   #90
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Re: In Prison in St Lucia

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Not to detract from the OP issue, but I have a request from all of the self-appointed experts on boat security…. Don’t talk about it on the internet.

Why would you give away secrets, weaknesses, opinions and dissent to the enemy?

Might as well paint all the boats pink and hang out a sign saying: Come and get us!

There are boats out there that have professional security plans and the last thing they would ever do is talk about them.

Exactly why I think we should all talk like bloodthirsty loons on these threads, regardless of the reality of our security planning. I would want anyone who looked me up not to know WHAT to expect when boarding my boat. All those who publicly say we should quietly acquiesce are encouraging any criminal element who may be doing some "research", IMHO.
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