In Prison in St Lucia

[Andrew Troup]

Very sad case. I have a certain amount of understanding of the pragmatic appeal of David Jersey's point, namely: on no account tell the truth.

But there's a wee problem with that: If the defence relies on telling a pack of lies, those lies had better stand up to pretty aggressive scrutiny.

And, if the prosecution similarly end up countering with a pack of lies, you don't have the satisfaction of reflecting that "well, they started it".

I think one would have to have an incredibly level head to work out, in the few seconds or minutes available, what the police might know, and what challenges your lies would have to withstand, in order to come up with something which would not leave you worse off than the truth, stuck to like a limpet.

And the alternative is likely to leave you fairly indistinguishable from a bad guy at the end of the process.

If your case ever reaches a high appeal court in this jurisdiction, I would hope they're likely to take some notice of the fact that the assertions which are being used against you were freely volunteered by you from the outset, and capable of another interpretation.

[hellosailor]

Actually the lock-em-up statistics are pretty famous for being an example of bad statistical comparisons. In the US a lot of people were incarcerated for the "Rockefeller Drug Laws". Criminals? Yes, but given long mandatory sentences for victimless crimes. That skews the stats and there's no simple way to compensate unless you start doing something more menaingful, like comparing who is locked up where for what crime.

I'm told that the same sloppy use of statistics also makes the UK one of the most felonious places to be, simply because bar fights are more common and felony assault convictions come from "friendly" bar brawls. Where in other places, the barkeep would just throw the brawlers out. Dunno what the facts are, only that the stats are well used as an example of bad statistics.

Anyone keeping stats on the number of schoolgirls groped in subway cars? That's acceptable in Japan, but generally results in criminal convictions in other countries. More ways to skew the stats.

And in Oz, I'm told they give you a summons (but no jail time) if you're a registered voter but you didn't turn out to vote. In the US, about 2/3 of the registered voters just don't bother voting most of the time, since we made buying and selling votes a crime. Hey, it's my vote, why should I trade it for empty promises, when this other fellow is willing to give me a couple of real beers for it?!

[Lagoon4us]

The mainstream attitude of Australian's is that our forefathers fought for our freedoms so we vote to maintain that freedom, fines are minimal and largely don't really motivate many.

The only thing that will bring this gentleman's case to a quicker result is publicity.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Group9

Excellent commentary on the situation.

Cheers

Upon further reflection, perhaps I should make clear that I am not a lawyer nor am I suggesting that anyone be less than truthful with any legal authorities they encounter.

Then again, I don't have a criminal record either .

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

I think one would have to have an incredibly level head to work out, in the few seconds or minutes available, what the police might know, and what challenges your lies would have to withstand, in order to come up with something which would not leave you worse off than the truth, stuck to like a limpet.

I would say just a bit of forethought goes a long way (like now?!) - plus the less said the better at the outset (officialdom often confused by too many facts at once - especialy when events are complicated). And remember that: "anything that you say will be taken out of context and twisted to use against you - if convenient to do so" .

If your case ever reaches a high appeal court in this jurisdiction, I would hope they're likely to take some notice of the fact that the assertions which are being used against you were freely volunteered by you from the outset, and capable of another interpretation.

That likely 5 years down the line, and not something I would be pinning much hope on anyway - as sounds like the "freely volunteered" angle more relevant as mitigation / explanation of motive (lack of forethought? / no intentional malice?)..........when sentence is passed .

[mbianka]

I agree with Andrew on this. Lies will come back to haunt you at a trial. If you initially say you never touched him and eyes on other boats say they saw you throw them him over board. Well, try explaining that to a local jury a few months down the road. It's not going to look good on you. Perhaps just reporting I found an intruder on my boat and leave it at that. If things start to appear to be pointing back at you. Then get an attorney.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by mbianka

I agree with Andrew on this. Lies will come back to haunt you at a trial. If you initially say you never touched him and eyes on other boats say they saw you throw them him over board. Well, try explaining that to a local jury a few months down the road. It's not going to look good on you. Perhaps just reporting I found an intruder on my boat and leave it at that. If things start to appear to be pointing back at you. Then get an attorney.

Exactly. The prisons are full of people who thought they could tell a good enough, but false story, that no one would ever be able to disprove it. The criminal justice system, full of flaws as it is, is designed to eventually get as close to the truth of a matter, as is possible.

Don't count on beating it by lying, when the first people you encounter will be people who interview people who try to lie for a living.

There is a funny old saying in law enforcement. "There aren't any deaf mutes in prison." Figure it out.

[chala]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

about 2/3 of the registered voters just don't bother voting

Very honourable. Why should someone be forced to vote? In Oz it is a good way of manipulating votes but if some one does not feel voting it can vote informal.

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

The mainstream attitude of Australian's is that our forefathers fought for our freedoms so we vote to maintain that freedom

This does not require forced vote.

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

The only thing that will bring this gentleman's case to a quicker result is publicity.

I hope not. Courts should not be influenced by publicity.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Trial is in June, isnt it? Wont hear much before.

The good thing is sometime the time served before the trial help reduce the time to be served after trial.

Originally Posted by SaltyTanned

You talk conviction yet the man in this case has not had a preliminary hearing to decide if charges should be pressed.

Originally Posted by GordMay

A French national has been charged in the drowning death of a local beach vendor[/url]

Originally Posted by GordMay

who having been
lawfully requested to depart, refuses to depart.

[Allio]

Originally Posted by Jammer Six

There are at least three things that metric could measure.

It could mean we have the tightest law, the most active police or the most criminals.

These examples mean that that metric, taken by itself, is meaningless.

Tightest law: Arguable. Strict for some, but blatantly corrupt for others. As the world over knows, in america, you get the justice you pay for i.e. if you can afford the top brass attorney, then you already have a major advantage.

Most active police: I would argue that police states have the most active police, china for example. Does the fear of the police engendered by their totalitarian approach to law lead to less crime per capita?
American culture as rammed down the worlds throats by your over the top cultural propaganda machinery (read hollywood, major entertainment conglommerates), celebrates the do it yourself approach to law enforcement.

Most criminals: Herein lies the rub. Define criminal. Define rehabilitation. A country which employs private prisons, whose bottom line depends on keeping those prisons full to overflowing. A country that incarcerates for substantial periods of time those who have committed at most misdemeanors under immoral three strikes laws.

I would imagine that if the US prison capacity was twice the size, America would have twice the prisoners.

I believe that the american system of jurisprudence has become flawed, and therefore those in glass houses.....

allio
p.s. this is not to say that i don't like america as a place to visit. Love the people too.

[Captain Grandpa]

Originally Posted by Allio

Tightest law: Arguable. Strict for some, but blatantly corrupt for others. As the world over knows, in america, you get the justice you pay for i.e. if you can afford the top brass attorney, then you already have a major advantage.

Most active police: I would argue that police states have the most active police, china for example. Does the fear of the police engendered by their totalitarian approach to law lead to less crime per capita?
American culture as rammed down the worlds throats by your over the top cultural propaganda machinery (read hollywood, major entertainment conglommerates), celebrates the do it yourself approach to law enforcement.

Most criminals: Herein lies the rub. Define criminal. Define rehabilitation. A country which employs private prisons, whose bottom line depends on keeping those prisons full to overflowing. A country that incarcerates for substantial periods of time those who have committed at most misdemeanors under immoral three strikes laws.

I would imagine that if the US prison capacity was twice the size, America would have twice the prisoners.

I believe that the american system of jurisprudence has become flawed, and therefore those in glass houses.....

allio
p.s. this is not to say that i don't like america as a place to visit. Love the people too.

When my brother was in trouble with the law, his attorney handed me his card. Right across the front it read "How much justice can you afford". *shakes his head in dismay*. Yes our system is very broken

[ElGatoGordo]

Originally Posted by Allio

Tightest law: Arguable. Strict for some, but blatantly corrupt for others. As the world over knows, in america, you get the justice you pay for i.e. if you can afford the top brass attorney, then you already have a major advantage.

Most active police: I would argue that police states have the most active police, china for example. Does the fear of the police engendered by their totalitarian approach to law lead to less crime per capita?
American culture as rammed down the worlds throats by your over the top cultural propaganda machinery (read hollywood, major entertainment conglommerates), celebrates the do it yourself approach to law enforcement.

Most criminals: Herein lies the rub. Define criminal. Define rehabilitation. A country which employs private prisons, whose bottom line depends on keeping those prisons full to overflowing. A country that incarcerates for substantial periods of time those who have committed at most misdemeanors under immoral three strikes laws.

I would imagine that if the US prison capacity was twice the size, America would have twice the prisoners.

I believe that the american system of jurisprudence has become flawed, and therefore those in glass houses.....

allio
p.s. this is not to say that i don't like america as a place to visit. Love the people too.

Oh please. Last sentence is nonsense, your previous diatribe bellies you. We honestly don't want you... Please go to the better place you obviously believe is there... They need you badly!

Can we get back to the thread? When a foreign cruiser is imprisoned for this long in the u.s. without even a hearing we can beat up on the US then! Oh and watch the public outcry cause the DA to poop or get off the pot!

[hellosailor]

allio, you show your ignorance of the US prison system, legal system, judicial system.

"A country which employs private prisons, whose bottom line depends on keeping those prisons full to overflowing. ...I would imagine that if the US prison capacity was twice the size, America would have twice the prisoners."

On those two points alone, you show you have no familiarity with the subject. The vadst majority of prisons in the US are government run, and there is major protest against having privately contracted ones. As for capacity, the courts at all levels (state and federal, which are 51 separate systems) have despite further great protests, ordered terms commuted and prisoners released because of consistent overcrowding.

If there were twice as many prisons, there would simply be less issue with overcrowding and early releases.

We have a flawed system, but it is somewhat better than Chile, where prisoners may need to supply their own blankets in unheated cells at 12,000 feet in the Andes. Or Mexico, where you may be imprisoned for having a minor auto accident. And where you won't get cable tv, unless you pay for it yourself.

Three strikes? Yes, most of the US knows that a career as a felon is likely to lead to some unpleasant times and treatment. So most of us don't do that. To be convicted three times, and have "three strikes" tolled against you, you've got to be doing something wrong.

In contrast, back in the 70's or 80's when a million dollars meant something, our own FBI statistics showed that something like 95% of all million-dollar robberies were successful, never solved, never convicted. The folks who take the time to plan their crimes, don't get caught or jailed. In contrast, 90% of all new businesses here fail within something like five years.

Beware of easy statistics.

[ElGatoGordo]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

allio, you show your ignorance of the US prison system, legal system, judicial system.....

Popular lore in much of the world, and some in our own country, is we are the world's bad guys.... Not those you mentioned or the many many others. Our media does little to help that IMO. But I suspect we're wasting breath, it's quite PC on CF and the rest of the western world to bash the US....I say fine... I'm not too impressed with the rest of the world anyway, having seen most of it.

[Allio]

Originally Posted by ElGatoGordo

Oh please. Last sentence is nonsense, your previous diatribe bellies you. We honestly don't want you... Please go to the better place you obviously believe is there... They need you badly!

Can we get back to the thread? When a foreign cruiser is imprisoned for this long in the u.s. without even a hearing we can beat up on the US then! Oh and watch the public outcry cause the DA to poop or get off the pot!

edit: I'm not going down this route....

[ElGatoGordo]

Originally Posted by Allio

I can't decide if this is a wind up? Heard of gitmo??????????????

Can you site the evidence of a foreign cruiser being held in Gitmo? Now, foreign fighters of the battle field yes... Different subject, but carry on.... You're making quite the fool of yourself :-)

Oops you're too slow! Hehehe