Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-03-2013, 16:18   #331
Registered User
 
Khagan1227's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Boat: In the hunt again, unknown
Posts: 1,330
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Any of you guys want some opinions on the quality of justice in "civilized" nations, try asking Amanda Knox about Italy.

Justice can be miscarried anywhere, all over the world.

And here in the US a man had a heart attack last week, what was it 48 hours after his wrongful conviction was overturned and he got out of 23? years in prison?
Funny thing, Ranta was most likely part of the robbery, even if he didn't pull the trigger. His accomplice, Joseph Astin may have been the one to kill the Rabbi and pinned it on Ranta. The Detective involved also denies he "prompted" the witness. It didn't help Ranta's case that he, himself confessed to the murder.

Because the U.S. uses the standard of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" it is likely many guilty people are set free in the U.S.

I'm not sure Ranta's case was a true miscarriage of Justice.
__________________

Khagan1227 is offline  
Old 28-03-2013, 16:40   #332
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Boat: Kirié Feeling 446
Posts: 130
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

You talk conviction yet the man in this case has not had a preliminary hearing to decide if charges should be pressed.

If Canadians her will recall a bunch of Hell's Angels were released a couple of years ago when the crown took too long to establish charges.

If someone is kept jailed, not charged (and presumed innocent) for a year do you think this is civilized? Have you any idea of what a St Lucia jail is like?

Should the ARC keep sending hundreds of unknowing yachtsmen to this country?
__________________

__________________
SaltyTanned is offline  
Old 28-03-2013, 16:45   #333
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
Any of you guys want some opinions on the quality of justice in "civilized" nations, try asking Amanda Knox about Italy.

Justice can be miscarried anywhere, all over the world.

And here in the US a man had a heart attack last week, what was it 48 hours after his wrongful conviction was overturned and he got out of 23? years in prison?
Yes or an Irish nanny in Boston ???? Personally of take Italian justice. !!!

Everyone thinks everywhere else is not as " proper" as there home country .

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 08:21   #334
Registered User
 
Group9's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,599
Images: 7
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyTanned View Post
We are getting away from the subject but you call soft a justice system that still has the death sentence? I do not think people in the developed world consider your country's justice "soft" on the contrary.
Do a little research on how hard it is to get the death penalty in the US, and how long it takes for it to be finalized.

As an example, a serial killer, killed a friend of mine (after killing 17 other persons) in 1987 and was caught a couple of hours later, and gave a complete confession (how he kidnapped, raped, and then murdered her) that I was present for. He was executed in 2011, after dozens and dozens of appeals and hearings). I think he got his due process.

Once you travel the world, you realize, that with a few exceptions, the US has one of the more tolerant criminal justice systems. Some are more lenient and some are less lenient, and anyone who is going to travel the world, should at least be aware of it. That doesn't mean agreeing with it.
__________________
Group9 is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 08:23   #335
Registered User
 
Group9's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,599
Images: 7
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyTanned View Post
If Canadians her will recall a bunch of Hell's Angels were released a couple of years ago when the crown took too long to establish charges.
You ever actually met a real Hell's Angel? Not the businessment who dress up like bikers on weekends, but the real thing?

I seriously doubt that any of them were innocent of what they were charged with. They are professional criminals (a direct quote from one of them on a wiretap).
__________________
Group9 is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 12:16   #336
Registered User
 
ElGatoGordo's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kemah, TX
Boat: Jim Michalak designed 25' Caprice and Self Design 32' Shantymaran
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyTanned
I don't read French...Sooooooo I'll ask again...is this substantiated info or not? I have no opinion, as there are essentially zero facts in evidence.
__________________
------------------
Gordo
ElGatoGordo is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 12:30   #337
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 42
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyTanned View Post
We are getting away from the subject but you call soft a justice system that still has the death sentence? I do not think people in the developed world consider your country's justice "soft" on the contrary.


that and the highest incarceration rate in the western world.
__________________
Allio is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 12:37   #338
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allio View Post


that and the highest incarceration rate in the western world.

[drift]
Actually you can delete "western" from that phrase.



[/drift]
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 12:44   #339
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 42
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Do a little research on how hard it is to get the death penalty in the US, and how long it takes for it to be finalized.

As an example, a serial killer, killed a friend of mine (after killing 17 other persons) in 1987 and was caught a couple of hours later, and gave a complete confession (how he kidnapped, raped, and then murdered her) that I was present for. He was executed in 2011, after dozens and dozens of appeals and hearings). I think he got his due process.

Once you travel the world, you realize, that with a few exceptions, the US has one of the more tolerant criminal justice systems. Some are more lenient and some are less lenient, and anyone who is going to travel the world, should at least be aware of it. That doesn't mean agreeing with it.
Are you actually joking? Any modern system of jurisprudence that believes it is okay to kill a person for a crime they committed is morally abhorrent, or so every other modern westernized culture believe. By travelling the world do you mean travelling to the parts of the world that imperialism, colonialism and war has impoverished and left clawing it's way out of the nineteenth century? Or your second world neighbours to the south?

That and the wholesale incarceration of it's own populace (some would also argue the american system is biased toward non white minorities).

I can't understand how the momentum of the civil liberties movement of the 60's and seventies died out and was allowed to regress to the point that people didn't and don't go absolutely spastic over the implications and applications of the Patriot act.

I also despise the moral superiority america wraps it's self in when preaching to the world that it's system of government and laws is the best. A system that by all accounts can't get gun control laws passed despite massive public support for the banning of assault weapons.

But politics. I digress.


allio
PS i've travelled the US and loved the people. Still feared the lawmen and government.
__________________
Allio is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 12:50   #340
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Do a little research on how hard it is to get the death penalty in the US, and how long it takes for it to be finalized.
[more drift]

Countries with capital punishment:

Quote:
Current use
Afghanistan Bahamas Belarus Botswana China (PRC) Cuba Egypt Guatemala India Indonesia Iran Iraq Israel Japan Lebanon Malaysia North Korea Pakistan Saudi Arabia Singapore Somalia South Korea Suriname Syria Taiwan (ROC) Tajikistan Tonga United Arab Emirates United States Vietnam Yemen
I am not sure I would want to be in that club.

[/more drift]
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 12:57   #341
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Everyone thinks everywhere else is not as " proper" as there home country .

Dave
Over here not so bad on most things - except when it comes to officialdom dealing with kiddy fiddling / abuse and similar complaints involving vulnerable people......then a carpet based approach (aka "the Jersey Way") is utilised.

Our officialdom kinda makes the Roman Catholic Church look proactive .

Currently have an ongoing dispute with the Church of England and our own local C of E big cheese ("The Dean" - kinda like a low level Bishop) - apparently the folks in the UK think something should be done when complaints are made about sexual abuse, whereas locally the great and the good are convinced doing nothing is the best way.

BBC News - Archbishop of Canterbury sorry over abuse complaint 'failing'

The bare bones above, the BBC locally are known for not looking very closely at anything .

Not to say that don't bring your kids or your wives here, but I would think twice if you are invited to any parties involving officialdom........
David_Old_Jersey is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 13:04   #342
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Baltimore, MD
Boat: Cal 2-27
Posts: 843
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElGatoGordo View Post
I don't read French...Sooooooo I'll ask again...is this substantiated info or not? I have no opinion, as there are essentially zero facts in evidence.
You can open the link in google chrome and it will give you an option to translate;-)

in case anyone did not know, this is a great feature. sometimes, things dont translate just right, but enough to give you the general idea.
__________________
76% of statistics are made up.
boatsail is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 13:06   #343
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Baltimore, MD
Boat: Cal 2-27
Posts: 843
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

I am not taking a position, just stating the thought process.

If killing is wrong, how can you decide it is ok to kill a killer? Would you not be a killer too?
__________________
76% of statistics are made up.
boatsail is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 13:32   #344
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Capital crimes in Australia, = Murder, gets you jailed untill the trial, can be up to two years before the trial,
No bail or release for capital crimes, If your innocent, thats two years out of your life, for nothing,
We abolished the death penalty years ago, wrongfully convicted and hanged, you cant bring a dead body back to life and say, We are sorry, we were wrong,
__________________
Mr B is offline  
Old 29-03-2013, 14:00   #345
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,046
Re: In Prison in St Lucia

Gato, you can't plead illiteracy in the age of machine translations. Google says:

Eric Sommer is accused of "murder" he claims not to have committed and sleeps for 4 and a half months in the central prison of Saint Lucia Antilles.Son father launches SOS authorities

André Sommer sent a letter to Laurent Fabius, imploring him to intervene.

Another letter to the office of Governor-General of Saint Lucia, the island nation in the Caribbean, where his son of 48 years, Eric was jailed for more than four months for a "murder" he claims not to have committed .

On May 12, Eric Sommer's son André, adventurer professional is anchored on the island, where it arrived less than a week before. For over 15 years he traveled the world on his yacht The Protinus, accompanied by his dog, Dogmatix. And stops where the door the wind, depending on meetings and jobs it finds.

May 12th, Eric hears a noise and goes on deck to see what happens. It is then face to face with a man who is unable to explain the reasons for his presence. The tone rises, two men fight without getting hurt. Eric and, according to him, throws him into the water as the boat which had hitherto led, of course, take the tangent. The intruder then began to swim to shore.

The adventurer Cagnois, convinced that the case is over, back to business. "You know, since he skims the seas, he saw other. Moreover, it is also why he has a dog, it warns of a possible intrusion on the boat, "says André

But two hours after the incident, a police boat docks and local police boarded the Protinus.

Eroded by his first lawyer

Eric was arrested and placed in custody at the antenna police ... accused of "murder". André says: "In this country, there is no distinction at home in the charges."

His son will be five days at the police, "in a row" before being detained at the central prison of St. Lucia.

"When the police came looking for him, he told everything of course. Intrusion, the fight and the guy is left to swim, "says André. "Except that the guy did not swim well. He arrived with great difficulty on the shore, where witnesses at the scene had called the police, "says his father. "The man died on the shore, in the presence of police officers."

The five masts moored about 200 meters offshore.

"At the police station, Eric had the time and the right to call me," says the father still fighting but still very experienced.

This resident of Haut-de-Cagnes, a former naval officer, took counsel swiftly away. Someone who had been recommended. "He made me believe that I could apply for parole. In all I paid him 13,000 euros to mount folders. Nothing worked. And I changed my lawyer the day I learned that mine had fired his gun at two people in a nightclub, "laments Andrew. "With my new lawyer, I realized that I had been cheated by this shyster. '

A trial?

On 5 October, the prisoner will - finally - a judge. "This is not a trial. This is just a hearing. Two solutions, or it is released. Or there will be trials. " But when? "Impossible to know. There are prisoners who have been there three or four years, just because they stole something from a store. Those who have money are however released on bail ... but not a stranger, let alone a French. '

The man who died on the coast was well known to the local police. According to lawyer Eric, he was a thief and a drug trafficker known: "He was dealing on the beaches in approaching people under the pretext of reading the lines of the hand. '

Perhaps it suffice to prove he's good faith Eric. But maybe not. Fortunately, the death penalty is not short in St. Lucia, the Commonwealth realm. But significant prison sentences, though. This is why Andre calls the French authorities. "I request that my son has a speedy trial, just and dignified," despairs he.

André restarts tomorrow at St. Lucia. "I got my ticket for a month now. Until now, it was the vacancy of the judiciary so I could not act. "On his arrival, he has an appointment with the new lawyer Eric. André is also in constant contact with the Embassy of France in Castries, the capital of the island. "Sometimes they call my son on the phone. The guards then leave his cell. I can not call it. '

"I feel that my son holds out. What does hold is that he knows he has done nothing, and normally there are witnesses to prove it. At the same time, I know that on this island, the French were not good press. And until when will it hold? "Cares what Dad would do anything to get his son from this nightmare.


-----------------------------------------------------------

Can any of the circumstances of the case be substantiated? Come on now, with no witnesses, no video, no forensics...Wait, yes, find out their religions and then ask their god(s) what happened. Of course if they are atheists and don't believe in an omniscient diety, there may be no way to tell what really happened.

Sometimes, in some places, you can be guilty of "negligent homicide" even if the press can't figure out that ain't murder. Even the Popes have made the same mistake, translating the Commandment against murder as being against "kill"ing. The difference seems to confuse folks.

If you throw someone overboard, for whatever reason, and as a direct result of your intentional action they drown and die, you're going to be up on charges. Even here in the US.
__________________

__________________
hellosailor is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anchorage in South St Lucia Teej Atlantic & the Caribbean 3 03-01-2012 05:49
Crew Wanted: ARC 2011 Las Palmas to St. Lucia mct Crew Archives 4 26-09-2011 12:54



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.