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Old 22-06-2008, 10:36   #1
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help with St Thomas vacation planning

Just completed ASA Basic Coastal Cruising course and now hoping to get some sailing experience under my belt. My girlfriend (also completed the training) and I hope to bareboat for a day or two only, just to learn the ropes a bit and be prepared to charter for a week on some future occasion.

Any advice on the best approach in/near St. Thomas?
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Old 22-06-2008, 12:57   #2
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Better to hit the BVI's. St. Thomas is a rat race and if you stay long, you may find out about the dark secret there: local people generally don't like visitors or even people who aren't from there. Most tourist places there will keep you away from local culture and crowds and try to direct you straight to the hotel, the beach, the charter, etc. so you won't have to mingle too much. I suppose that if you did that you might enjoy it, but you may always wonder what was missing about your visit to the Caribbean. The ferry ride to Tortola is short and sweet and from there you have many options. Jost Van Dyke is beautiful and so are several of the smaller islands in the BVI's.
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Old 22-06-2008, 13:03   #3
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we use to charter from BVI's (Moorings and Footloose) but now charter only with CYOA out of STT. Have had great yachts and wonderful experiences. Lots of great places all around St. John. Very easy for beginners - be sure to get a mooring early - anywhere you go - gets more and more crowded every year. BVI's have lots of wonderful places. Get the Virgin Islands Cruising Guide - it will get you started. Have fun!
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Old 22-06-2008, 17:49   #4
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Agree with getting the guide it will allow you to better select where to go to do what you want to do. St Thomas itself is not a very good place to cruise but St John and places es like Greater St James have great locations to sail and anchor or take a mooring... avoid St Thomas.

Not really sure what you could do for a day or tow cruse... Can you event get a boat for that limited time???? Much of the cost of a cruise boat is the prep that would be the same for an overnight as for a week fro the yacht management company... you may be able to pick up a day sailer... but you would be missing most of the experiences your probably looking for.... Generally all would probably be far easier in the BVI than the USVI and as previously indicated it is just a short ferry boat away.
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Old 23-06-2008, 14:11   #5
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Can't disagree with most that has been stated above. My experiences with native Virgin Islanders are different than what thatchcaye describes. Not sure how thatch determines how one qualifies as a "local" and do not wish to guess. I would agree that at times STT can be a "rat race" compared to other Caribbean destinations.

I live on St Thomas and rarely sail to anywhere on it. Buck Island is nice when there are no cruise ships. Water Island is fun on Saturday and Sunday nights. As mentioned above Great St James is very nice. But that is a small list compared to St John and the BVI's. The sailing really is better elsewhere as Reality Check stated. IMOH

As for wanting to charter for a day or two, that might be tricky. During the summer months business is very slow and there might be somebody who would be interested in a short term for you. Some business is bound to be better than no business. I think the Ritz has an IC24 (modified J24) that you could take out for the day.

In Tortola Nanny Cay Marina might have something. On Virgin Gorda at the Bittter End $$$$$$ they would have a plethora of boats you could take out for a day.

How big a boat were you thinking of and what time of year?
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Old 23-06-2008, 19:01   #6
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Time of year is next week (6/28 thru 7/4). Size of boat--I think I'd feel comfortable on a 35' or less mono hull.

Thanks all of you for your advice. I sincerely appreciate you taking time to inform and suggest.
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Old 24-06-2008, 15:06   #7
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Does anybody need a crew-member for the leg from Tortola to Trinidad or help delivering a boat to Trinidad for the hurricane season? I'm available. I'll sail for free. I just want to be on the water. I'd have to fly up from Trinidad, so any help with a ticket would be a winner. Call me at 868-343-4150, or email to christopherbroadbridge@hotmail.com (June 24, 2008).
Happy sails,
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Old 24-06-2008, 15:52   #8
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I was born in St. Thomas and lived there for thirty years of my life and I know St. Thomas inside and out. There are many news stories that you can go to if you wish to find out about local resentment of white people in general. The fact that a senator from St. Croix was continuously elected to the senate of the Virgin Islands by running on a "kick white people out or make them pay through the nose" campaign was always fascinating to me throughout my childhood. His name is Adelbert Bryant and he even shut off the fuse box of the senate when they refused to pass some of his more racist agenda against white people. The Fountain Valley massacre of St. Croix also comes to mind when reminiscing about the US Virgin Islands and you may wish to look into that. It ocurred many years ago, but the ideology that led to it is fairly prevalent among the underclass of St. Thomas and St. Croix.

I personally have been subjected to many forms of racism in the Virgin Islands. One time I was waiting in a long line at a grocery store and when I finally got to the counter, the cashier put "closed" in front of me and walked away. When I asked why, she said "Cause you're white". And that is not to mention all the times I was physically beat up at school while growing up for being white. And that is also not to mention the fact that "Kill the Rabbit" was the number one Calypso song there one year and the song was taken to mean (not by just a few people) to mean "Kill the white person" and attacks on white people during Carnival time were at an all time high. That is also not to mention that the US navy stopped going to St. Thomas for R&R for a long period of time after several of their servicemen were attacked and killed there in the 1990's.

And it might help to mention that everyone who speaks the creole vernacular of St. Thomas is very knowledgeable of the term "white mother skunt" as directed against white people. Ask someone there what it means and if they have ever come across it. If the person is honest who you ask and has lived there for a while, their answer could be very insightful.

I am not saying that everyone in the whole Virgin Islands is an evil racist, but I am saying that I am not living in a dream world and I am not slandering anyone when I say that racism against white people is alive and well in St. Thomas and St. Croix. It is the dirty little secret that most people who travel there as tourists never see. Why would they since those in the tourism industry derive great benefit from the money they get from tourists? Taxi drivers and hotel personnel put on a smile and direct you away from back streets, housing projects, dark alleyways, and most large gatherings of people except at Carnival time where police prescence is doubled up at. I am not delusional and I know what I lived through in the Virgin Islands growing up. I am one of many many people who grew up there and who can bear witness to the fact that something is not quite right there.

St. John has always been an exception to that vibe and it is very nice and friendly for the most part. You can walk anywhere on St. John and go anywhere there. No taxi drivers or hotel employees will tell you to stay away from any part of St. John and it is a beautiful island. The BVI's are also very friendly and safe.

I am sorry to say anything that upsets some people since I am 100 % certain that the vast majority of people who have visited the USVI's have had a wonderful experience. I am just saying, from personal experience, what I have gone through. And that is part of what these forums are for, after all. Now that I have lived in other places, I have gained a lot of insight into what causes the kind of racism that I experienced in St. Thomas. In the end result it comes from local people being marginalized. All of the big hotels, all of the big charter companies, all of the supermarkets,almost all of the big hardware stores, all of the jewelry stores, most of the shops along Main Street, a majority of the best land, most of the finest houses, etc. etc. are all owned by people who are not native Virgin Islanders. That causes resentment and it tends to fester since the well-off can send their children to private schools and get a good education for their kids and then send them to the US to a university there, while the native Virgin Islander is most likely to go to a public school and not receive a good education, no stateside university, no stateside job and therefore ends up with a very different view of "paradise" than someone else would.

I would be very happy to keep exploring these issues with other posters, but I refuse to have anyone insinuate anything about me without knowing my experiences and my insights as a good human being trying to do the best he can on this earth. And I actually do think it is insightful to explore the theme of overdevelopment and the negative impact of the marginalization of local people by mega resorts, mega supermarkets, mega shopping meccas, etc.
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Old 24-06-2008, 17:33   #9
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[quote=thatchcaye;175723]I was born in St. Thomas and lived there for thirty years of my life and I know St. Thomas inside and out. There are many news stories that you can go to if you wish to find out about local resentment of white people in general. This seems like an odd forum to discuss this. What exactly is your agenda and how will this benefit soembody coming here on vacation? The fact that a senator from St. Croix was continuously elected to the senate of the Virgin Islands by running on a "kick white people out or make them pay through the nose" campaign was always fascinating to me throughout my childhood. His name is Adelbert Bryant and he even shut off the fuse box of the senate when they refused to pass some of his more racist agenda against white people. The Fountain Valley massacre of St. Croix also comes to mind when reminiscing about the US Virgin Islands and you may wish to look into that. It ocurred many years ago, but the ideology that led to it is fairly prevalent among the underclass of St. Thomas and St. Croix. These stories are not unknown, but most places have suffered through bad times and become stronger because of it. Slavery and segregation come to mind in the continental US. In the grand scheme of things, neither of which was very long ago. It would appear that racism is still practiced in many places and poverty is alive and well too. It would also be difficult to dispute the obvious fact that anywhere there is a large economic disparity there will be problems regardless of race, color or creed. If you want to ignore the racial slant and look at Mr. Bryant, idiots are elected everywhere all the time. I recall a DC mayor who was seen on tape smoking crack, he was again elected into office.

I personally have been subjected to many forms of racism in the Virgin Islands. One time I was waiting in a long line at a grocery store and when I finally got to the counter, the cashier put "closed" in front of me and walked away. When I asked why, she said "Cause you're white". And that is not to mention all the times I was physically beat up at school while growing up for being white. It sounds like you have personal examples of being treated poorly. As I clearly stated, my personal experiences have been vastly different. So would it be fair to say that we are both right?And that is also not to mention the fact that "Kill the Rabbit" was the number one Calypso song there one year and the song was taken to mean (not by just a few people) to mean "Kill the white person" and attacks on white people during Carnival time were at an all time high. I admit I had to look this one up. My research indicates this was populat in 1969. Is that your understanding? If so, are you really intending to compare current events to something that happened 40 years ago? If 1969 is not correct please educate myself and anybody else who is reading this. That is also not to mention that the US navy stopped going to St. Thomas for R&R for a long period of time after several of their servicemen were attacked and killed there in the 1990's. Your knowledge of VI history is far superior to mine. Could you comment on more recent events that support your opinion on the "resentment of white people"?

And it might help to mention that everyone who speaks the creole vernacular of St. Thomas is very knowledgeable of the term "white mother skunt" as directed against white people. Ask someone there what it means and if they have ever come across it. If the person is honest who you ask and has lived there for a while, their answer could be very insightful.

I am not saying that everyone in the whole Virgin Islands is an evil racist, but I am saying that I am not living in a dream world and I am not slandering anyone when I say that racism against white people is alive and well in St. Thomas and St. Croix. It is the dirty little secret that most people who travel there as tourists never see. Why would they since those in the tourism industry derive great benefit from the money they get from tourists? Taxi drivers and hotel personnel put on a smile and direct you away from back streets, housing projects, dark alleyways, and most large gatherings of people except at Carnival time where police prescence is doubled up at. And those same people who derive income from tourists do the same things in Chicago, New York and LA. There are bad places where bad things happen on St Thomas. It would seem impropable that there is a housing project or dark alley anywhere where one would not possibly find trouble. Why go and look for it? I am not delusional and I know what I lived through in the Virgin Islands growing up. I am one of many many people who grew up there and who can bear witness to the fact that something is not quite right there. You seem very articulate and your impressions of growing up here are very interesting, far from delusional. Obviously this was not the place for you and hopefully you are happier wherever it is that you live now.

St. John has always been an exception to that vibe and it is very nice and friendly for the most part. They had some huge race problems less than two years ago that were heated by some racial comments. It involved a couple of fires, a claimed rape and an assault. The FBI was highly involved and took the events out of the local authorities. Granted all parties involved were residents not tourists, which brings up an interesting point. Would you be willing to elaborate further on your knowledge of "resentment of white people" in examples of how it has affected tourists and not residents? Because that actually is what we should be discussing, visitors. This is the Cruisers website and not the VI residents open forum. You can walk anywhere on St. John and go anywhere there. No taxi drivers or hotel employees will tell you to stay away from any part of St. John and it is a beautiful island. The BVI's are also very friendly and safe. Tortola has been getting quite a bit of bad press in certain areas in the last couple of years, robbery and theft have been on the upswing.

I am sorry to say anything that upsets some people since I am 100 % certain that the vast majority of people who have visited the USVI's have had a wonderful experience. I am just saying, from personal experience, what I have gone through. And that is part of what these forums are for, after all. Now that I have lived in other places, I have gained a lot of insight into what causes the kind of racism that I experienced in St. Thomas. In the end result it comes from local people being marginalized. All of the big hotels, all of the big charter companies, all of the supermarkets,almost all of the big hardware stores, all of the jewelry stores, most of the shops along Main Street, a majority of the best land, most of the finest houses, etc. etc. are all owned by people who are not native Virgin Islanders. That causes resentment and it tends to fester since the well-off can send their children to private schools and get a good education for their kids and then send them to the US to a university there, while the native Virgin Islander is most likely to go to a public school and not receive a good education, no stateside university, no stateside job and therefore ends up with a very different view of "paradise" than someone else would. The Universitly of the Virgin Islands is still open, isn't it?

I would be very happy to keep exploring these issues with other posters, but I refuse to have anyone insinuate anything about me without knowing my experiences and my insights as a good human being trying to do the best he can on this earth. And I actually do think it is insightful to explore the theme of overdevelopment and the negative impact of the marginalization of local people by mega resorts, mega supermarkets, mega shopping meccas, etc. I agree that with vast development and economic growth there will be persons who are adversely affected by it. I for one am satisfied with that part of capitalism as socialism and communism are not a lifestyle I would volunteer for. That does not mean that I wouldn't like to see all benefit from financial investment. I just don't know how to make it happen. [/quote]

Sorry to veer too far off topic, just trying to provide balance and a second personal experience for visitors to ponder.
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Old 26-06-2008, 14:34   #10
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I can agree with some of what the other poster thinks and am definitely not in favor of socialism to cure any economic ills since it tends to exacerbate them in the long run and just doesn't work. I also strongly believe that socialistic policies are what has led to St. Thomas and St. Croix having such a large underclass that is filled with resentment. Not just the mega developments that have taken over there are what has led to marginalization of people in the Virgin Islands, although there are just too many people crowded into one tiny little space there because of them.

I think that you are also right that a cruising forum is not the ideal place to bring up all the facts about the Virgin Islands that most people will not even need to know or will not even encounter there. But, I do feel that people need to know that the culture, and even more so, the friendliness of the Virgin Islands has been negatively impacted by many factors over the years and I think it is important for people to know that. I am firmly of the opinion that St. Thomas and St. Croix have deteriorated drastically since the 1970's which was my childhood times.

Perhaps my memories of the 70's are imbued with some childhood innocence, but I do know that all of the fringe reefs around St. Thomas were very alive and vibrant all the way into the early 1980's and that now nothing is alive due to all the runoff and overdevelopment, and ,more to the point, due to overdevelopment with no concern for any standards of what an island 13 miles long by 3 miles wide can take.

St. Thomas is like Disney World with no environmental restraints and a large underclass of seething, resentful people. It is a charade for people to go to and spend a weekend or week in paradise , and that would be fine if it weren't so ecologically insensitive.

I think St. Thomas made a decision a long time ago (right in the early 1980's when cruise ships starting coming in heavily) to not care. Go for the money. Blow the environment to Hell and not worry about anything as long as people are enjoying their vacation. Give the underclass some wellfare programs, concrete jungles to live in, and a horrible education system (even though they could have given them the best in the world with all the money that flows there). Pave paradise and put up a parking lot but tell people which parts of the parking lot to avoid so they don't get beat up and robbed.

I think St. Thomas is seeing the chickens come home to roost now. For all of its beauty (and that is the only thing I even remotely miss about it), St. Thomas is just not a good spot to see anything different from so many other parts of the Caribbean, it has so very little artistry and homegrown culture, and nothing ecologically unique anymore. It is for folks who wish nothing more than to go someplace and stay in places that everyone around them either looks and acts like them and where the locals are hustling their money from them, not because they genuinely enjoy seeing tourists, but because it is better than beating them up for it or just killing them outright. There is nothing distinct, nothing unique, nothing cultural, nothing artistic, nothing genuine, and nothing really environmentally special and preserved on St. Thomas.

If all people on this earth who have money want to do is to go to someplace that is daily getting more into the "all-inclusive" resort plan (which shuts them off from the local community since the local community is now too bereft of anything positive or artistic to offer and is also too dangerous and surly to mingle tourists into), then St. Thomas is paradise and will be for years to come. Fortunately I have met many many people from the US and Canada who want something more than that and many of them were on charters and cruisers. Therefore I do not think I am wasting my breath when I write that there are many genuine places out there to go to where people actually welcome you with a smile, where people have artistic and cultural talents, where they are not marginalized and filled with resentment, and where a person can actually see and learn new things.

I have found so many people on cruisers and charter boats who are horrified with how bereft of charm St. Thomas is and who long for a better experience (although I am sure that the other poster will tell me the opposite). I have met many extremely well-educated people with very individualistic mind-sets who travelled the Caribbean and even the world on boats and who will never go back to St. Thomas. Some are even starting to avoid the BVI's now although I don't know why. I suspect that the whole "mega, super size everything and pack as many in as you can mentality" has hit the BVI's now and that is why, but I do not know.

I sympathize with all of the folks who are trying to make money from the Virgin Islands. I was once one of you. I saw what the true cost was and finally moved on, but I know how hard that must be for people who have their life's savings tied up there and who need something to keep happening so they can keep making it. I know that there are many folks there who never saw St. Thomas in the 1970's and who have never even travelled outside of the United States and its territories. I know that many people still see St. Thomas as a paradise and it will be hard for them to change their minds. But the truth is that St. Thomas stopped being paradise a long time ago and that mentalities have to start changing.

We are headed into a new world where oil and petroleum based economies need to start changing, where places that have lax environmental regulations need to wake up, and where local people need to understand that they are filled with unlimited potential to be creative and to positively affect other human beings on this earth. Mega resorts and mega cruise ships and mega casinos all should take a moment to breathe deeply and ask themselves truly and from the heart "what have I wrought?", what have I done to make the earth a better place besides giving some people some jobs that capitalize on destruction of resources and ecologies?

I have noticed that money corrupts even the best ideals when it comes at a cost not directly borne by the makers of it. But the children of so many people in St. Thomas are bearing the weight of a place that just gave up caring. And for me to take on all of the vested interests there is futile. The other poster on this thread has a vested interest there and although I suspect he is a good and decent person, I also suspect that he knows there is "trouble in paradise".

But I enjoy ideas and I like to chat about them. I say cruisers should avoid St. Thomas and go someplace nicer, while others will say that it's great and you can have a blast there. Every head is a world unto itself and that's what's great about life.

Lastly, for the other poster, "Kill the Rabbit" was the road march song in the 1990's by the famous Jam Band. I personally saw a car with an East Indian jewelry store owner and his wife picked up and thrown off the waterfront during Carnival that year and I got attacked and robbed during that same year. The East Indian guy got punched in the face and his wife had her gold necklace ripped off her neck and a gang of not less than twenty guys all picked up the car in front of hundreds of cheering spectators and threw them and their car right into the water. It was an amazing sight and no one can tell me that many St. Thomian people are, as a whole, gracious, sensitive, caring, or even remotely concerned with the wellfare of those who don't share their skin color. They are a product of their environment and it isn't pretty.
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Old 26-06-2008, 18:20   #11
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Sure agree with "thatchcaye".

I lived in St. Thomas and in St. Croix.

Kill the white rabbit was alive and well in the 80s.
Friends got killed and raped.
It never hit the head lines or the tourist agencies.

Some folks thinks it is paradise, but in reality it is a timebomb.

Seems that the locals can't make it even in opportunity is staring them in the face. Same with Haiti and Jamaica.

Go figure.
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Old 27-06-2008, 11:03   #12
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WOW!!!! What at interesting twist to a simple quesiton from the OP. So can we all agree that a short sail away there are better destinations than St Thomas for cruising/sailing? Could we also agree that it would still statistically be safer to sail into Charlotte Amalie Harbor alone than the Gulf of Aden? Can we agree that St Thomas really is not targeting the sailing commnuity? Could we further agree that St Thomas is targeting the cruise ship industry and fly-in visitors?


Do we then really wish to examine the social and economic problems on St Thomas/USVI on this forum? Should we then all pass around a bottle of Cruzan and solve them? If so read on. Oh, and by the way, I will not claim to know why there are problems here and what the solutions are. There are problems here and I have never and will not deny that fact. My comments are based on my own and my friends lack of negative experiences of the past few years on St Thomas (STT).

I absolutely can appreciate first hand experiences from the "other posters". History is important to learn. Thanks for the education on some parts of the STT history that I was not aware of. After rereading the previous posts two things seem very clear: 1) The moderators on this site will let things ramble and 2) Experiences and timeframes are different for myself and the other posters.

To deny others have feelings, opinions and experiences is foolish. In the same vein it seems foolish to assume that change is not possible too. From not living on STT in the 60's-90's it would be ridiculous for me to comment on how events that happened during that time would have affected my current feelings and opinions of the island had I been here then. Back to current events. Would anyone wish to provide some information about negative events that visiting sailors or cruisers have experienced in the past 5 years on St Thomas? IMHO that information would be exponentially more valuable than discussing senseless acts of violence that happened decades ago.

Do I think STT is paradise, absolutely not. Have I ever said it was...NO. There are many, many, many other places that I have visted that are more like paradise to me. Most of them are not under the US flag, which is important to me. Cruisers and sailors stay away from St Thomas and St John. That way there will be more deserted places for my wife and I to enjoy.

A quote from thatch in blue
I have noticed that money corrupts even the best ideals when it comes at a cost not directly borne by the makers of it. But the children of so many people in St. Thomas are bearing the weight of a place that just gave up caring. And for me to take on all of the vested interests there is futile. I do not know what you mean by taking on all the vested interests. It sounds like a big task. Are you doing anything positive for the place you were born that you appear to think is in such a dire situation? Do you also think no one should ever visit New Orleans because of the crime spree after Katrina and the political corruption that has been widely documented? The other poster on this thread has a vested interest there and although I suspect he is a good and decent person, I also suspect that he knows there is "trouble in paradise". I went to Wiki to make sure I knew what vested interests meant. I also checked on the way marginalization was being used, neither word is normally found in my limited vocabulary. Because I have not had the same negative experiences that some have reported, it is interesting that another poster has determined that I have some sort of vested interest. Please do tell, what vested interest I have. Let's see...vested interests...not involved with tourism, or financially affected by the few sailors of cruisers that choose to visit or not. In the long run I do not plan to retire here so at some point I will need to sell my home and boat, but that may not be for decades. So having a "victim" to purchase my assests at some time in the future probably would qualify as a vested interest. You got me.

Trouble in paradise? Paradise is your word not mine. The irony of this is humorous. After living here a year or so I used to visit a local forum that was for people contemplating moving or recently moved to the VI. A long time poster on the board and I got into a lengthy debate regarding the incidence of crime. Her view was that it was no worse here than any place else (she had lived here 30 years). My view was that even with the poor reporting and the non-inclusion of the VI in the FBI crime stastics data base, the VI had the dubious honor of leading in most catagories.

This exchange of ideas sure was a nice change of pace from the boring discussions of good anchors and LED lighting. Actually the Cruisers Forum is great place to learn about all things boat related and I enjoy it.

I need to put my body armor on now and head to the bunker, rumor has it there is a timebomb about to go off. Just kidding CSY. Actually you wrote Seems that the locals can't make it even in opportunity is staring them in the face. Same with Haiti and Jamaica That is a pretty broad brush, but I do not at all disagree with your point. There are many opportunities here but one must have initiative to go get them. Sadly that is frequently lacking.

Please send a PM if anyone wishes to discuss further. Better yet, if you are sailing in the BVI waters next week, let's meet and discuss in person, over libations, of course. I do not see much informational wisdom coming forth in comparing historic events of the past 10,20,30 or 40 years with current events on an open sailing forum. That is not to say that I do not find this whole conversation very interesting.





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Old 27-06-2008, 14:35   #13
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Please stay on topic~

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Originally Posted by prkenyon View Post
Just completed ASA Basic Coastal Cruising course and now hoping to get some sailing experience under my belt. My girlfriend (also completed the training) and I hope to bareboat for a day or two only, just to learn the ropes a bit and be prepared to charter for a week on some future occasion.

Any advice on the best approach in/near St. Thomas?


I'd like to ask everyone to please bring the discussion back to the topic. I've reposted the original question so we can press the "Reset" button, and give prkenyon advice, if there's anything new to add.

Thanks,
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Old 27-06-2008, 20:01   #14
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Quote:
rumor has it there is a timebomb about to go off. Just kidding CSY.
Well, if you or one of your family members got killed or raped that would be like a bomb in your face, but it would hardly hit the news.
Bad news would keep all them cruise ships away and we don't want any of that do we?

Feel safe and get the warm and fuzzy feeling about the place, you will most likely get away unscatched. Like when I drive down I-95 on the way to work, yet I still keep my seat belt fastened in case there is trouble ahead.

St. John and Tortola and other BVIs are much "safer", less scumbags around I guess.
Same in tne Bahamas, around Nassau the crime rate is high, but on the outer islands the natives are sweet and friendly and there is no need to lock your door or your boat.
Same in Kingston (Jamaica). the big city is the bad place with more crime and murders than you can shake a stick at..Go in the country side and the picture is different.
Wont even mention Port of Prince in Haiti, a cesspool of filth and crime/scum.

Put on rose-colored glasses and some of that may not register untill it hits you in the head.
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Old 28-06-2008, 04:55   #15
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