Haiti attack on Cruisers.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by first wind

haiti or maybe new orleans during hurricane katrina. of course, one could never accuse anywhere in America of being a small place. perhaps, more honestly, it could be said that the lowest common denominator in human society takes advantage of chaos for their own profit.

to see the whole picture, you really have to compare the reaction of people during katrina to that of people during similar times of chrisis, like the dustbowl years or the time when the banks of the mississippi began to collapse after heavy rains on top of improper agricultural practices.

doing that, you will see it's not the disaster (economic or otherwise) that is at fault. it is the quality of the people.

I don't understand how you cannot see the difference from what happened in Haiti and what happened in New Orleans with Katrina. It is quite amazing that you should think both have the same social disruptive capacity regarding a country ability to deal with it.

the massive earthquake that struck Haiti in January 2010 killed more than 300,000 people and leaved 1.5 million left homeless. Haiti has a population of 10.3 millions so that corresponds to 2.9% of the total population killed and 14.6% of the population homeless.

For happening something with identical social disruptive impact on the US more than 9 millions had to have died and more than 46 millions become homeless. Katrina hurricane killed 1833 people and leaved 12 000 people homeless.

Comparing the social disruptive dimension of the two tragedies, considering the size of the countries, is just ludicrous and attributing the devastating social disruptive effects on Haiti to the lower "quality of the people" is...well I don't know what it is, I am at loss with words

[Polux]

Originally Posted by tightgroup

Is there growth in China? Of course, and that is not my point. ...
While some are getting richer, I would certainly not call that growth.
....

I understand you correctly when you say people in China are not living much better now than 20 or 30 years ago?

[sailorboy1]

I'm trying to figure out what China has to do with cruisers in Haiti being attacked.

[s/v Jedi]

It's tough to swallow when you live in a country that has been at the top for so long but now at the edge about to tumble down. It's easy to blame the countries that are about to take your position; much easier than finding ones own faults.

My view is much simpler: empires rise and empires fall.

In the case of Haiti it is pretty sure that they won't take our place yet. They don't become thugs because of who we are, they simply become thugs because we have something of value that they wish to get by violence.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand how you cannot see the difference from what happened in Haiti and what happened in New Orleans with Katrina. It is quite amazing that you should think both have the same social disruptive capacity regarding a country ability to deal with it.

the massive earthquake that struck Haiti in January 2010 killed more than 300,000 people and leaved 1.5 million left homeless. Haiti has a population of 10.3 millions so that corresponds to 2.9% of the total population killed and 14.6% of the population homeless.

For happening something with identical social disruptive impact on the US more than 9 millions had to have died and more than 46 millions become homeless. Katrina hurricane killed 1833 people and leaved 12 000 people homeless.

Comparing the social disruptive dimension of the two tragedies, considering the size of the countries, is just ludicrous and attributing the devastating social disruptive effects on Haiti to the lower "quality of the people" is...well I don't know what it is, I am at loss with words

I not sure it was degrading the Haitian people or equating those that did that to the level of some of those after Katrina.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I'm trying to figure out what China has to do with cruisers in Haiti being attacked.

This was my fault, I compared US foreign aid in Haiti to Chinese foreign aid, saying it wasn't so much aid to help the country as aid for imperialistic purposes. Oops.



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[d4raffy]

Originally Posted by cards26

What saves Americans from more crime is that the people here think that ALL Americans have guns. This may come from the westerns on TV, Dirty Harry...I dunno.

Does this have credence - does flying a U.S. Flag make the unwashed think twice ?? ....


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[Eddiefuego]

Very interesting thread. Reminds me of a group of blindfolded people feeling an elephant. Well here are a couple of more parts to perhaps gain perspective.
Two billion people on the planet with I was born, now there are over 7 billion. The carrying capacity of the planet is estimated by those that look at such things as about 2 billion. We are breeding ourselves out of house and home, and placing heavy stresses on billions. Educating young girls and giving them control of their reproduction is key for the future. Educate WOMEN chose not to make so many babies. If we are feeding people, their responsibility to me is to NOT make more people...and to work to get on their feet. Hand Up not a hand Out.

Second leg: The U.S. gov has a long and not very nice history in Haiti. I imagine the Chinese are not all that altruistic either. Read, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, by John Perkins for a first hand account of how U.S. aid has operated in the past. Very eye opening. Then travel like the wind now, while we can...because the reality is, we are not headed in a very good direction.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Eddiefuego

...
Two billion people on the planet with I was born, now there are over 7 billion. The carrying capacity of the planet is estimated by those that look at such things as about 2 billion. We are breeding ourselves out of house and home, and placing heavy stresses on billions. Educating young girls and giving them control of their reproduction is key for the future. Educate WOMEN chose not to make so many babies. If we are feeding people, their responsibility to me is to NOT make more people...and to work to get on their feet. Hand Up not a hand Out.
....

There is a lot of educated girls on developed countries and there is a problem there with natality, not the one you mentioned but the opposite one.

I don't know if education on 3rd world will be fast enough to deal with the problem, probably not. Till now the only effective measure I saw was on China. It was wildly criticized but the fact is that it worked.

[tightgroup]

Originally Posted by Polux

I understand you correctly when you say people in China are not living much better now than 20 or 30 years ago?

Obviously not, the point I was making, is while you can have a greater economic growth and more wealth, it can come a greater price. Also growth can not be only measured in GDP or wealth, so while we are impressed with graphics, it does not show the entire picture.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by tightgroup

Obviously not, the point I was making, is while you can have a greater economic growth and more wealth, it can come a greater price. Also growth can not be only measured in GDP or wealth, so while we are impressed with graphics, it does not show the entire picture.

Not wishing to open a can of worms, there many factors other than GDP.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand how you cannot see the difference from what happened in Haiti and what happened in New Orleans with Katrina. It is quite amazing that you should think both have the same social disruptive capacity regarding a country ability to deal with it.

the massive earthquake that struck Haiti in January 2010 killed more than 300,000 people and leaved 1.5 million left homeless. Haiti has a population of 10.3 millions so that corresponds to 2.9% of the total population killed and 14.6% of the population homeless.

For happening something with identical social disruptive impact on the US more than 9 millions had to have died and more than 46 millions become homeless. Katrina hurricane killed 1833 people and leaved 12 000 people homeless.

Comparing the social disruptive dimension of the two tragedies, considering the size of the countries, is just ludicrous and attributing the devastating social disruptive effects on Haiti to the lower "quality of the people" is...well I don't know what it is, I am at loss with words

what's ludicrous is that you really have failed to examine the actual comparisons i made; or to even comprehend exactly what i was comparing to what.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand how you cannot see the difference from what happened in Haiti and what happened in New Orleans with Katrina. It is quite amazing that you should think both have the same social disruptive capacity regarding a country ability to deal with it.

the massive earthquake that struck Haiti in January 2010 killed more than 300,000 people and leaved 1.5 million left homeless. Haiti has a population of 10.3 millions so that corresponds to 2.9% of the total population killed and 14.6% of the population homeless.

For happening something with identical social disruptive impact on the US more than 9 millions had to have died and more than 46 millions become homeless. Katrina hurricane killed 1833 people and leaved 12 000 people homeless.

Comparing the social disruptive dimension of the two tragedies, considering the size of the countries, is just ludicrous and attributing the devastating social disruptive effects on Haiti to the lower "quality of the people" is...well I don't know what it is, I am at loss with words

to help you get what i am trying to say:

first, there are two comparisons in my post. the first comparison, that of haiti to new orleans, is supported and explained by the second; which is a comparison of three different events in US history.

you judge my post as if i was directly comparing new orleans to haiti, without any onther qualifying arguments. your response to such a comparison shows that you really do not understand the US at all. unlike most european countries, the US is really more of an empire with the states being like subject countries ruled over by the tyrannical overlord in DC (no. that's not exactly how it was intended but two centuries of public negligence and government corruption have an effect). you judge the katrina incident's social effect by using the total US population compared to the losses in new orleans, as if we were really just one big country with one small neighborhood having a bad day. in reality, new orleans has it's own community and social order. to be more accurate, you'd have to compare the losses to katrina with the population of new orleans; not the whole country.

however, that wasn't the actual comparison of my post. i was comparing katrina to the dust bowl years and the collapse of the banks of the mississippi. three different events in American history. the latter two having a very different result, as far as the reactions of the population, that that of the first. the difference in result is a direct result of the quality of the people involved in the situations.

it was this, that was the basis of my comparison of new orleans to haiti and the basis of the conclusion i drew as a result of that comparison.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by first wind

to help you get what i am trying to say:

first, there are two comparisons in my post. the first comparison, that of haiti to new orleans, is supported and explained by the second; which is a comparison of three different events in US history.

you judge my post as if i was directly comparing new orleans to haiti, without any onther qualifying arguments. your response to such a comparison shows that you really do not understand the US at all. unlike most european countries, the US is really more of an empire with the states being like subject countries ruled over by the tyrannical overlord in DC (no. that's not exactly how it was intended but two centuries of public negligence and government corruption have an effect). you judge the katrina incident's social effect by using the total US population compared to the losses in new orleans, as if we were really just one big country with one small neighborhood having a bad day. in reality, new orleans has it's own community and social order. to be more accurate, you'd have to compare the losses to katrina with the population of new orleans; not the whole country.

however, that wasn't the actual comparison of my post. i was comparing katrina to the dust bowl years and the collapse of the banks of the mississippi. three different events in American history. the latter two having a very different result, as far as the reactions of the population, that that of the first. the difference in result is a direct result of the quality of the people involved in the situations.

it was this, that was the basis of my comparison of new orleans to haiti and the basis of the conclusion i drew as a result of that comparison.

So, you are still convinced that the social collapse on Haiti has not to do with the huge dimension of the natural catastrophe (proportionally incomparably bigger than anything that had happen on US) that hit them but with the lower "quality of the people"?

Originally Posted by first wind

...
to see the whole picture, you really have to compare the reaction of people during katrina to that of people during similar times of chrisis, like the dustbowl years or the time when the banks of the mississippi began to collapse after heavy rains on top of improper agricultural practices.

doing that, you will see it's not the disaster (economic or otherwise) that is at fault. it is the quality of the people.

[denverd0n]

Wow. Absolutely nothing at all to do with the original post anymore, huh? Maybe we need a "Politics" forum around here for these kinds of silly arguments.