Haiti attack on Cruisers.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by JRM

I was down in Haiti in September, working in a private orphanage. I've spent a decent chunk of time in third world contries, and Haiti is different. There's a hopelessness there that has to be experienced firsthand, it can't be described.

I work as a first responder, and the place I was volunteering for is operated by an R.N. who was in the initial earthquake response. I don't think we were treated any better for it. There are so many various aid agencies in the country, no one would be able to tell anyway.

I would never take my wife there, nor my boat. I didn't even take a wristwatch, much less a phone or a computer. We hadn't been in the country an hour before we had our first "negotiations" while the other side brandished a shotgun.

It's just a different place, and I don't think normal third world type experiences translate. I feel very badly for this couple. Those are some very serious injuries for anyone, much more so for a more "seasoned" person. I wish them a speedy recovery.

JRM

..

When a disaster of such a big magnitude hits a small place like Haiti it is not only the humanitarian crisis that he are looking at but the social order that goes to pieces. That was aggravated by Haiti having experienced on the last decades always a very precarious social and political situation. Very sad all that.

It should be terrible to work on a place like that, I mean emotionally. One should fell completely helpless.

[jjk308]

Originally Posted by CSY Man

Looks like Haiti has an average IQ score of 67.

No wonder they can get their stuff together.

National IQ Scores - Country Rankings

So far nobody's been able to do a human IQ test that isn't primarily a function of education, especially reading ability.

Some of the attempts remind me of a "Dog IQ Test" I once read about. It involved putting a dog in a big paper bag, folding it closed and measuring the amount of time it took the dog to get out.

That didn't work on my Sheltie because he was so obedient he figured that if I put him in a paper bag it meant I wanted him in a paper bag, so he just sat patiently until I let him out.

A Haitian could be smarter than you, certainly smarter that the people who wrote that IQ test article, but if he couldn't read quickly and with good comprehension he'd score very, very low. Also, the more familiar he became with testing, and especially IQ tests and all multiple choice tests, the higher his score would be.


I wouldn't be surprised if there was a brain drain at work in Haiti, as anyone smart and educated would have left a long time ago, but that's not enough to push the average IQ down 30+ points.

[CSY Man]

[QUOTE



A Haitian could be smarter than you, certainly smarter that the people who wrote that IQ test article, but if he couldn't read quickly and with good comprehension he'd score very, very low.[/QUOTE]

Sure, a Haitian could be smarter than Einstein. Reality is that they have not figured out how to feed themselfs.

[Cadence]

There is a difference between testable IQ and ethics. IQ is innate where ethics are taught. With a governmental system corrupt from the top down you cannot expect any morals. How did this become a social thread? I wish the couple well and that others avoid Haiti.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by jjk308

...
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a brain drain at work in Haiti, as anyone smart and educated would have left a long time ago, but that's not enough to push the average IQ down 30+ points.

I have known and worked with a few Haitians over the years. They have always impressed me with their work ethic and desire to live the American Dream. Currently, I work with a guy from Haiti and to say he is "smart" is an understatement. He managed to get out of Haiti knowing very little English but he learned and got a college degree here in the US. He knows a few other languages besides English, he is learning another language, and his degree is a difficult one. He ain't no dummy.

Haiti's problem, like so many other countries, is corruption. The country has no real resources but it's people but the corruption just keeps them down. Until that changes nothing else will change. Giving a few dollars to the policeman or immigration official is a way of life and expectation. Its not right, it is wrong, but it is what is.

Later,
Dan

[CSY Man]

Perhaps the smart ones get out and the remaining ones are starving?

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Polux

When a disaster of such a big magnitude hits a small place like Haiti it is not only the humanitarian crisis that he are looking at but the social order that goes to pieces.

haiti or maybe new orleans during hurricane katrina. of course, one could never accuse anywhere in America of being a small place. perhaps, more honestly, it could be said that the lowest common denominator in human society takes advantage of chaos for their own profit.

to see the whole picture, you really have to compare the reaction of people during katrina to that of people during similar times of chrisis, like the dustbowl years or the time when the banks of the mississippi began to collapse after heavy rains on top of improper agricultural practices.

doing that, you will see it's not the disaster (economic or otherwise) that is at fault. it is the quality of the people.

[first wind]

[QUOTE=CSY Man;1806192]

Sure, a Haitian could be smarter than Einstein. Reality is that they have not figured out how to feed themselves.

can't argue that. a study of the history of haiti will show that it's nothing new, either.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by jjk308

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a brain drain at work in Haiti, as anyone smart and educated would have left a long time ago, but that's not enough to push the average IQ down 30+ points.

yes, but combine that with the fact that more intelligent people tend to only have as many children as they can afford to feed and less intelligent people have kids regardless of the ability to provide for them and you can see that 'natural' selection, in much of human society, favors the less intelligent. more less intelligent people have more kids and that means the population, as a group, tends to drop in IQ levels.

and, if you think i'm wrong about who has the most kids, watch the following news clip.

no great intellect, there, and she is sure passing on her genes. just think if each one of her 15 (now 16, i believe) kids is as...fruitful...as she is. that would potentially be 256 people with her dna, in only two generations. even if they are only half as fruitful, in three generations you'd have 1024 people with her dna; enough for their own zip code.
(the Gods forbid anyone consider that she should be held accountable for the results of her own actions.)

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Claude_Marie

I have just read a story about chinese famillies (not in number, yet) relocating themselves from the E.U to....

...

...

China !

Thriving chinese economy sought to offer better opportunities for their kids.

This is a serious problem in the scientific field right now. After decades of Chinese scientists immigrating to the US to work, and Chinese students coming to the US for advanced education (and staying to work), they are now returning to China in large numbers because of the opportunities there now. It is a real brain drain, particularly for the US because fewer students enter science there.

Mark

[tightgroup]

Originally Posted by colemj

This is a serious problem in the scientific field right now. After decades of Chinese scientists immigrating to the US to work, and Chinese students coming to the US for advanced education (and staying to work), they are now returning to China in large numbers because of the opportunities there now. It is a real brain drain, particularly for the US because fewer students enter science there.

Mark

Have you been to China ?? Opportunities ?? For some connected to the party lines. But lets look at the million plus workers at Hon Hai Precision (better know as Foxconn), which is border line slavery. Or the great eco friendly naval fleet, which gorge on millions of dirty bunker fuel per single leg . But let us not forget the amazing social programs, where China closed down its forced labor camps, in favor of prison where workers have no rights. Made in China (by slaves)..

One party one voice.. but yes its much better in China, when the air pollution cleared enough for you to see the sidewalk,you can enjoy the trip to your shop for a 12 hour day, 6 days a week.

Yes much much better in China!

[colemj]

Originally Posted by tightgroup

Have you been to China ?? Opportunities ?? For some connected to the party lines. But lets look at the million plus workers at Hon Hai Precision (better know as Foxconn), which is border line slavery. Or the great eco friendly naval fleet, which gorge on millions of dirty bunker fuel per single leg . But let us not forget the amazing social programs, where China closed down its forced labor camps, in favor of prison where workers have no rights. Made in China (by slaves)..

One party one voice.. but yes its much better in China, when the air pollution cleared enough for you to see the sidewalk,you can enjoy the trip to your shop for a 12 hour day, 6 days a week.

Yes much much better in China!

I have worked in China. You seem to overlook that I was talking about scientists with advanced degrees, and not Foxconn workers or navy personnel.

Whatever you may think, the Chinese middle class is larger in absolute terms than that in the US and Canada combined and growing at a tremendous pace. Opportunities there now are boundless for people in this bracket and, in my specific example, better than those in the US and Canada.

These are not people connected socially or politically with ruling party lines or similar. They are simply people who are grabbing good opportunities - with the benefit that they get to return to their homelands and extended families while doing so.

Before making statements about air pollution, you should remember Los Angeles in the 1970's. Air pollution is now bad in China for the same reasons - a rapidly rising middle class who can afford lots of automobiles and consume large quantities of factory goods. Along with a complicit government not constraining the problem to promote middle class growth.

In other words, China is following a well-worn path in their social, industrial and economic development, and this should be understood before throwing stones from a glass house (don't make me embarrass you by mentioning Canadian examples from its development history like Sudbury or Mt. Polley or Sidney Tar Ponds or even the more recent Codfish population collapse).

BTW, before you start railing against Foxconn and the like, you should make sure you are not buying any electronic goods, or other consumer goods using electronics (washing machines, automobiles, etc). Stay away from Walmart and the like. Make sure you only buy goods made in factories that meet your social criteria.

If you do not, you are the problem - not the Chinese.

In a short, few years, you will not be having this argument about China because China will have a developed middle class demanding cheaper goods than can be made in China. Instead, your argument will simply shift to the next developing economy that strikes a bargain with the world - cheap consumer goods in exchange for rapid economic and political development.

That may be the US, or even Canada...

So, have you ever spent time in China?

Mark

[tightgroup]

Originally Posted by colemj

I have worked in China. You seem to overlook that I was talking about scientists with advanced degrees, and not Foxconn workers or navy personnel.

Whatever you may think, the Chinese middle class is larger in absolute terms than that in the US and Canada combined and growing at a tremendous pace. Opportunities there now are boundless for people in this bracket and, in my specific example, better than those in the US and Canada.

These are not people connected socially or politically with ruling party lines or similar. They are simply people who are grabbing good opportunities - with the benefit that they get to return to their homelands and extended families while doing so.

Before making statements about air pollution, you should remember Los Angeles in the 1970's. Air pollution is now bad in China for the same reasons - a rapidly rising middle class who can afford lots of automobiles and consume large quantities of factory goods. Along with a complicit government not constraining the problem to promote middle class growth.

BTW, before you start railing against Foxconn and the like, you should make sure you are not buying any electronic goods, or other consumer goods using electronics (washing machines, automobiles, etc). Stay away from Walmart and the like. Make sure you only buy goods made in factories that meet your social criteria.

If you do not, you are the problem - not the Chinese.

In other words, China is following a well-worn path in their social and industrial development, and this should be understood before throwing stones from a glass house (don't make me embarrass you by mentioning Canadian examples like Sudbury or Mt. Polley or Sidney Tar Ponds or even the Codfish population collapse).

In a short, few years, you will not be having this argument about China because China will have a developed middle class demanding cheaper goods. Instead, your argument will simply shift to the next developing economy that strikes a bargain with the world - cheap consumer goods in exchange for rapid economic and political development. That may be the US, or even Canada...

So, have you ever spent time in China?

Mark

Is there growth in China? Of course, and that is not my point. The middle class which is growing is but a mere fraction of the total populous while the billion + are starving.
The dichotomy of China is what makes it an industrial giant is also its weakest link, and that is the sheer number of people.

China is an older civilization that endured conflicts for thousands of years, and as such because of the lessons learnt by these conflicts can today control its population. Therefore individual rights, gives way to conformity, free speech gives way to national doctrine, democracy gives way to dictatorship, the needs of the planet gives way to the need of the factory and finally compassion gives way to greed!

While some are getting richer, I would certainly not call that growth.

Did I spend time in China, yes both in the 80's and recently.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by tightgroup

Is there growth in China? Of course, and that is not my point. The middle class which is growing is but a mere fraction of the total populous while the billion + are starving.
The dichotomy of China is what makes it an industrial giant is also its weakest link, and that is the sheer number of people.

China is an older civilization that endured conflicts for thousands of years, and as such because of the lessons learnt by these conflicts can today control its population. Therefore individual rights, gives way to conformity, free speech gives way to national doctrine, democracy gives way to dictatorship, the needs of the planet gives way to the need of the factory and finally compassion gives way to greed!

While some are getting richer, I would certainly not call that growth.

Did I spend time in China, yes both in the 80's and recently.

So are you still disagreeing with me that Chinese scientists with advanced degrees are not finding better opportunities back in China than they are in the US and Canada? And are not returning home in large numbers to pursue those opportunities?

Do you not see parallels in your above 2nd and 3rd paragraph description of China with current situations in both our countries?

I had to double check you were still talking about China when you wrote

Originally Posted by tightgroup

Therefore individual rights, gives way to conformity, free speech gives way to national doctrine, democracy gives way to dictatorship, the needs of the planet gives way to the need of the factory and finally compassion gives way to greed!

While some are getting richer, I would certainly not call that growth.

Mark

[fozrunner]

This is my experience as well. Chinese post-docs and Ph.D. students (science) have more opportunity and better funding than in the US or Canada.

And because they don't have to worry about getting re-elected their government can have some foresight and run stable programs that last for more than four years. I'm not saying this is an ideal system, human rights, censorship and disparity in standard of living are huge issues, but they do have some advantages.

Originally Posted by colemj

I have worked in China. You seem to overlook that I was talking about scientists with advanced degrees, and not Foxconn workers or navy personnel.

Whatever you may think, the Chinese middle class is larger in absolute terms than that in the US and Canada combined and growing at a tremendous pace. Opportunities there now are boundless for people in this bracket and, in my specific example, better than those in the US and Canada.

These are not people connected socially or politically with ruling party lines or similar. They are simply people who are grabbing good opportunities - with the benefit that they get to return to their homelands and extended families while doing so.

Before making statements about air pollution, you should remember Los Angeles in the 1970's. Air pollution is now bad in China for the same reasons - a rapidly rising middle class who can afford lots of automobiles and consume large quantities of factory goods. Along with a complicit government not constraining the problem to promote middle class growth.

In other words, China is following a well-worn path in their social, industrial and economic development, and this should be understood before throwing stones from a glass house (don't make me embarrass you by mentioning Canadian examples from its development history like Sudbury or Mt. Polley or Sidney Tar Ponds or even the more recent Codfish population collapse).

BTW, before you start railing against Foxconn and the like, you should make sure you are not buying any electronic goods, or other consumer goods using electronics (washing machines, automobiles, etc). Stay away from Walmart and the like. Make sure you only buy goods made in factories that meet your social criteria.

If you do not, you are the problem - not the Chinese.

In a short, few years, you will not be having this argument about China because China will have a developed middle class demanding cheaper goods than can be made in China. Instead, your argument will simply shift to the next developing economy that strikes a bargain with the world - cheap consumer goods in exchange for rapid economic and political development.

That may be the US, or even Canada...

So, have you ever spent time in China?

Mark