Haiti attack on Cruisers.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Wow. Absolutely nothing at all to do with the original post anymore, huh? Maybe we need a "Politics" forum around here for these kinds of silly arguments.

Who is talking about politics? We are talking about the "quality of the people" to be or not the main reason for the social deregulation in Haiti that many here have considered to be the main cause of attacks on foreign sailboats.

Do you think that has nothing to do with a sailboat attacked on Haiti and has to do with Politics? What Politics are you talking about?

[Steadman Uhlich]

I am interested if anyone who is reading the original post that started this thread about the couple who was viciously attacked in an anchorage has changed their own Point of View about how they intend to prepare for and possibly respond to unwanted intruders at an anchorage.

Anyone care to comment on that possible change of view or plan?

Obviously, one simple response is to avoid Haiti.

But, I am more interested if anyone has felt a need to change their own POV based on this case.

[Claude_Marie]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

Anyone care to comment on that possible change of view or plan.

[...]

But, I am more interested if anyone has felt a need to change their own POV based on this case.

Benelli M90 "Trench sweeper".
(US Marine corps approved)

Ruger Super red hawk Alaskan
(100% Stainless)
454 Casull

[onestepcsy37]

I like the Ruger Alaskan but think a high capacity pistol would be better in this case. Two would be best. I like the Benelli too.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Claude_Marie

Benelli M90 "Trench sweeper".
(US Marine corps approved)

Ruger Super red hawk Alaskan
(100% Stainless)
454 Casull

Just an old Mossberg would do. 12ga. with a 22 inch barrel.

Becoming a gun thread?

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Polux

So, you are still convinced that the social collapse on Haiti has not to do with the huge dimension of the natural catastrophe (proportionally incomparably bigger than anything that had happen on US) that hit them but with the lower "quality of the people"?

ok. i have only one more response because, if you don't get it, you don't get it. this is from an earlier post:

"I was down in Haiti in September, working in a private orphanage. I've spent a decent chunk of time in third world contries, and Haiti is different. There's a hopelessness there that has to be experienced firsthand, it can't be described.

I work as a first responder, and the place I was volunteering for is operated by an R.N. who was in the initial earthquake response. I don't think we were treated any better for it. There are so many various aid agencies in the country, no one would be able to tell anyway.

I would never take my wife there, nor my boat. I didn't even take a wristwatch, much less a phone or a computer. We hadn't been in the country an hour before we had our first "negotiations" while the other side brandished a shotgun.

It's just a different place, and I don't think normal third world type experiences translate. I feel very badly for this couple. Those are some very serious injuries for anyone, much more so for a more "seasoned" person. I wish them a speedy recovery.

JRM"

this was written by someone who went there to give aid. to help the unfortunates. good quality people don't accost those there to help them with violence. unless you think it's normal to threaten the life of someone there to help you. maybe that's how you, personally, respond to help.

so, your wife is suffering a massive heart attack and you threaten the ambulance crew with an ar15. right? perfectly normal behavior for any decent individual during a time of chrisis. i know that when i'm dealing with tragedy and disaster my first thought is to rob and threaten those who come to my aid.

and, you know, all over the world, people in need attack and rob those who come to rescue them. cut off the hand held out to help you. that's the way of civilized humans.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Just an old Mossberg would do. 12ga. with a 22 inch barrel.

Becoming a gun thread?

gun? heck with that. i want greek fire!

disclaimer: greek fire must be used against pirates before they board you. never use it against targets on your own vessel.

[onestepcsy37]

FWIW, I was in Haiti in the 1980's. It was a shothouse then. Its still a shothouse. The reasons are simple and undeniable. Poverty. Corruption. Ecological Rape. Overpopulation. And most importantly, Hopelessness.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by first wind

ok. i have only one more response because, if you don't get it, you don't get it. this is from an earlier post:
....
and, you know, all over the world, people in need attack and rob those who come to rescue them. cut off the hand held out to help you. that's the way of civilized humans.

Yes I have understood you clearly from the beginning: They get what deserve on Haiti, they are low quality people and that's the origin of their problems. You should think the money and international aid, including the one from US is just a waste.

Off course, I do not agree but that does not mean that I do not understand you.

[CSY Man]

No such thing as low quality people.
We all try to make the best out of our situation and to improve our lifes.
Some are born into endless poverty and lifelong desperation.
In Haiti, and India a few years ago, there was no way out, no escape.
Expect for the desperate few who tried whatever to get away as they had nothing to loose.

No excuse for attacking cruisers, but the cruisers are the stupid ones for even getting close to Haiti or other desperate places. It is so naive and so stupid to anchor or cruise in those areas.
It is like throwing a bone in front of a starving dog.
Stay the hell away from those places.

Send Bill Clinton to Haiti, he has the talent and the charisma to turn the place around, slowly but surely.
There is no local talent there, the peons and the politicians are not capable of Governing themself. They have proved it over and over again. IQ, DNA, Culture, whatever you call it, they need help big time and right now. The proof is in the pudding, they are starving and beyond any reasonable hope. Haiti is hell on earth.
UN ought to send Bill Clinton there with a reasonable budget. Nothing to loose, it can not get any worse.

[Claude_Marie]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

I like the Ruger Alaskan but think a high capacity pistol would be better in this case. Two would be best. I like the Benelli too.

Two ??
Greedy
Benelli, Marines, Seals, SAS cannot be wrong.
Cerakote coating is really corrosion proof.
Same goes for the "Alaskan", professional outfitters, hunters, fishermen choice for close range bear defense.
Anything that can endure Alaska climate is good enough for the rest of world.
I would consider a Tokarev Siberian but that does not exist.



@ Cadence, a gun thread would not be a worse thread drift than discussing global " quality of the people" men, women and toddlers alike.
Btw, Benelli M4 super 90 is a 12Ga-18,5"

[Polux]

Originally Posted by CSY Man

No such thing as low quality people.
We all try to make the best out of our situation and to improve our lifes.
Some are born into endless poverty and lifelong desperation.
In Haiti, and India a few years ago, there was no way out, no escape.
Expect for the desperate few who tried whatever to get away as they had nothing to loose.
...

I agree with you. The country is incredibly overcrowded and they have been struggling for years to have a democratic government and went out of dictatorship. The huge dimension of the 2004 natural tragedy disrupted social order and brought them back to a past they want to overcome. They need help to get on their feet again, to finish with criminal activity and to reestablish social order. That would be impossible while the absolute poverty and desperation remains as the only possibility.

They have a strong identity with a past history they can be proud off:

"Gaining its independence in 1804, Haiti was the first independent nation of Latin America and the Caribbean, the second republic successful in a war of independence against a European colonial power in the Americas, the only nation in the western hemisphere to have defeated three European superpowers (Britain, France, and Spain), and the only nation in the world established as a result of a successful slave revolt."

Haiti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Polux

... "Gaining its independence in 1804, Haiti was the first independent nation of Latin America and the Caribbean, the second republic successful in a war of independence against a European colonial power in the Americas, the only nation in the western hemisphere to have defeated three European superpowers (Britain, France, and Spain), and the only nation in the world established as a result of a successful slave revolt."

Haiti’s current economic crisis and political turmoil have their roots in the odious debt of 150 million gold francs (later reduced to 90 million) which France imposed on the newborn republic in 1825.

The debt was ten times Haiti‘s total 1825 revenue.

The sum was supposed to compensate French planters for their losses of slaves and property during Haiti’s 1791-1804 revolution, which gave birth to the world’s first slavery-free, and hence truly free, republic.

It is the only case in world history where the victor of a major war paid the loser reparations.

It took Haiti 122 years, until 1947, to pay off both the original ransom to France, and the tens of millions more in interest payments borrowed from French & American banks to meet the deadlines.

[onestepcsy37]

Originally Posted by Claude_Marie

Two ??
Greedy
Benelli, Marines, Seals, SAS cannot be wrong.
Cerakote coating is really corrosion proof.
Same goes for the "Alaskan", professional outfitters, hunters, fishermen choice for close range bear defense."

Love the Alaskan, but in this situation there were six pirates (not one bear) boarding the boat. Better to rapid fire at the group and watch them jump back in the water, where you can pick them off at your leisure.

Not certain about this, but I think the Alaskan wildlife rangers carry 12 guage riot guns for close in bear protection.

[Claude_Marie]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

Love the Alaskan, but in this situation there were six pirates (not one bear) boarding the boat. Better to rapid fire at the group and watch them jump back in the water, where you can pick them off at your leisure.

Not certain about this, but I think the Alaskan wildlife rangers carry 12 guage riot guns for close in bear protection.

I would not desagree on that, 2 back up solutions are better than one.
Maybe you can google Ruger S.A.R (Search and Rescue), used by Canadian SAR personnel, you might not like the colour though.

Looks like we are having our own quiet discussion (hope you appreciate that all Euro are not greensohialiststreehuggersgunsloathers)

I had a look what sort of velocity/energy you can expect from a "mid-weight" 454, quite impressive.(335gr - 1904 ft-lbf)
So that got me wondering....just close your eyes and figure out 3 skinnies standing in line in your companionway, that's about as thick as a bear....draw your own conclusion.