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Old 17-10-2014, 07:32   #46
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Re: Gonzalo

Good questions JTsailjt.

Themooring is 2.5 tons, 5,000 pounds, concrete, shaped like an anchor, shank is about 10 feet long and the flukes are about 4 feet long.
Fro there is a large chain about 5 inches? In diameter onto two seperate 1.5 inch rodes of Nylon twist ending in loops.
Each loop around a cleat with safety lines locking the cleats.

The rodes go through fairlead horns that are designed for about 3/4 inch lines so they are locked in place hence no chafe, nor room for chafe protection... See photo below.

In the photo in my previous post see the position of my boat and the thin red lines of the arcs of wind that would affect it. These were drawn in nearly 12 months ago when I was investigating staying here.

In that photo of the previous post you will see that many other boats, you can see boats in Google Eath, that have much less protection than mine and are, indeed, exposed to all winds from all directions. None of those boats survived.

Not only that those boats dragged down onto the marinas along the airport and ALL boats in those marinas were lost. The gentleman that was killed was there and by boats crushing his.

My point on anchoring and morrings is tha if one is in a hurricane area one must be set up to survive a hurricane. Its ridiculous otherwise. Yes, I know accidents will still occur.

Very few boats in my area dragged or were sunk.

Many moorings here are private. Theres no laws, its the Caribbean. You can chuck anything down and claim its your mooring. You dont have to go to the Harbour Master and say can I have a mooring.
Due to this there is avast amount of wasted space in the safe areas such as mine.
To have a private mooring, like in many countries, you buy a spot and a authorised contractor puts in a propper mooring. There cold be many times the number of protected moorings.

But still its up to people to be smart.

The last boats in were huge tourist attraction boats from the crusie ship areas. They went and anchored in the middle and ALL dragged down and hit other boats and those marinas.

One steel hulled bit of rusting junk took out 3 or more boats in my area... Thas just ONE boat!

I gotta go.... Sorry no tine to spell check!
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Old 17-10-2014, 07:46   #47
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Re: Gonzalo

gonzalo had the unique characteristic of RAPID INTENSIFICATION immediately over st marten... that is more storm than a mere categorization, as the damthing was picking up intensity as they were under it.
as this was a concern for those of us watchinjg it develop and travel, and as prep for that includes prep for a cat 5 storm, this is a seriously unique situation.
most of the storms hitting caribbe do not usually rapidly intensify overhead. . this one did.
we were fortunate, here, in mainland exico when odile rapidly intensified off shore from our location--cat2-cat 4 in 5 hours only, and slammed cabo and la paz as a cat 3.

as these rapidly intensify, the gusts are severe and deadly.
the only word i had that the storms ri'd oiverhead were from storm 2k.com, not from nhc or other sources. is hard to prep for rapid intensification, which, btw, does NOT occur frequently(except this year, it seems)
is difficult at best, especialy when ye only have a few storms with names annually to be ready for the sledgehammer from hell, even as it develops over your head--as that is too late, as some learned when trying to get to their boats in a still labelled ts that was actually a developing rapidly furycame.
the female meteorologist on s2k who has a boat in st marten said this one was like living thu hell. she was on land for the storm. even she was taken aback as the ri occurred over her head, and mark's and all the folks in st marten.
mark stated he had no time when learning of intensity , to leave for safety.
as this developed intensity so fast, there was truly nothing left to do but ride it out in whatever craft they were using. sad day for st martin. sad day fro those caught in this .
sad day for bermuda arriving as cat4 approaches them.
i am glad to see we here in cf are not bashing the victims, as some have bashed those in la paz and cabo and st marten.
i have read bashing form some folks i used to respect... this behaviour is unacceptable to me.... bashing those caught in a mayhem that was not expected nor predicted by a national counted on weather source.. there was no mention of rapid intensification until i read it in storm 2k.
this is a unique weather season -- blame it on el nino , or whatever cause--these this year are record setters. be safe and be well.

mark--ye dun gud.. stay safe, amigo.
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Old 17-10-2014, 07:49   #48
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Re: Gonzalo

I'm surprised that there was no chafe on the rode you showed, even though it was oversized for the fairleads. I would have thought if you had significant up and down, combined by side to side motion, that there would have been some chafing occurring.

Scary your comments about the way moorings are dealt with. Yes, I would have assumed all moorings would be designed to deal with hurricanes Cat2-3. That is a hard lesson others had to learn.

Do you think that there would have been any benefit to have a storm anchor of the stern from any of these boats?
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Old 17-10-2014, 08:39   #49
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Re: Gonzalo

My top rule in BVI for hurricanes: to determine when to take the boat out... I look at the old locals and see what they have done with their boats. If they are taking them out I take ours out. If they are moving them to a safer location, so do I. I'm not talking the middle aged guys, the ones that have a little more bravado, I mean the salty older locals.
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Old 17-10-2014, 08:41   #50
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Re: Gonzalo

Just catching up here. Glad you made it through OK Mark. Would hate to loose your understated, humble contributions to the online sailing world

Seriously ... very glad you did well. And thanks too for the details on your mooring set up. How were you able to source your mooring? It is obviously a well-constructed anchor. And when you get a moment I too would be interested to hear your thoughts on how your lines didn't chafe in that chock. Wouldn't the lines be stretching and contracting a lot under load? That alone would have produced movement in there ... no?
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Old 17-10-2014, 09:13   #51
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Re: Gonzalo

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
My top rule in BVI for hurricanes: to determine when to take the boat out... I look at the old locals and see what they have done with their boats. If they are taking them out I take ours out. If they are moving them to a safer location, so do I. I'm not talking the middle aged guys, the ones that have a little more bravado, I mean the salty older locals.
Do you own a marina or just pay for permanent space on the hard somewhere? I would have loved to have taken our boat out. Problem is space unless somehow you have access to a spot somewhere anytime you decide which to me is a bit hard to comprehend.
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Old 17-10-2014, 11:46   #52
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Re: Gonzalo

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I'm surprised that there was no chafe on the rode you showed, even though it was oversized for the fairleads. I would have thought if you had significant up and down, combined by side to side motion, that there would have been some chafing occurring.
There needed no chafe protection because the 1.5 inch rope in a 3/4 inch slot did not allow for any movement whatsoever. I thought I would need to winch the lines out of the fairlead hornes after the hurricane but even after 95 knots they were not deeply embedded so they did not more, could not move = no possible chafe.



BTW the lines popped straight out after the storm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by accomplice View Post
It is too late for me to do anything different as the winds have started to pickup here in St George's and our dinghy is lashed down ashore, but it would be useful to compare experiences.


.
The storm is only 150nms away from you so not far. Wind strengths are expected to be 110 knots SUSTAINED.

I think you MUST leave the boat.
Theres nothing we could do in 80 or 90 knots and its other boats dragging thats totally out of your control. You cant get on deck in that wind let alone fend off. So get off the boat and rent a hotel room or watch from the bar, but GET OFF.

You are set in your location now so before you leave to go ashore all you can do it put out extra anchors (who cares if they twist in the aftermath, just slowly recover them later.). Ensure all sails are off (ours were not taken off because we still were not expecting tha high winds untill it was too windy to do anything). Ensure every last bit of flapping material, line etc is lashed down. That all the rodes, chains etc are chafe protected if the can possibly move.

So all I can suggest is get to shore. If your dinghy is already ashore just jump on the VHF and ask someone to ferry you in to shore. Its not chicken to get off. Because I assure you I would be OFF MY BOAT. You have done all you can, all you can be reasonably expected to do, and you can not do a thing whilst on the boat in the storm, so on the balance of probabilities you life is better served being able to help people ashore, and after the storm to be alive and get your dinghy into the water IMMEDIATELY the wind settles, even if its 4am and get out there and check on everyone, help everyone, make sure no one is injured and can't get to hospital. Getting off is not leaving the battle, its reserving your forces to where they can best be used in that small community that could be devestated in such a strong storm. You are more vaulable after the storm with a tool box and a first aid kit and a dinghy that works than a dead sailor on a boat.

IMHO its more heroic to know when to get off than curmudgeonly stay when the wind is 110 kots SUSTAINED. Gusting to what???

All the best
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Old 17-10-2014, 12:15   #53
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Re: Gonzalo

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comment........no comment

The Seven Seas Cruising Association, Hurricane Gonzalo, and thoughts on the loss of the yacht G-String* - Gary E. Brown
The Seven Seas Cruising Association, Hurricane Gonzalo, and thoughts on the loss of the yacht G-String

10/16/2014

22 Comments




I started out to write a thank you on Facebook to all the wonderful people who winged their thoughts our way when they heard that St. Martin was in the grips of a monster hurricane and later when they learned that our boat G-String had been mortally wounded … Jan and I thank you with all our hearts.

Having read comments posted on the Seven Seas Cruising Association (SSCA) Facebook page and, being a journalist/ writer blessed with human frailty, I felt the need to put a few things straight. One comment hinted that people on boats in St. Martin got what they deserve because they were in the hurricane belt and should have been in Trinidad instead.

To those posting these comments, please take a moment to think before passing judgment. And please remember that three people who loved the sea gave their lives to it during the storm.

As the editorial director of the Caribbean wide sailing/lifestyle magazine All At Sea, I have preached long and often about leaving the hurricane belt during storm season. And I have written thousands of words about securing your boat in a seaman like fashion ahead of a storm or hauling it ashore. Going against all my own advice, I found myself in the middle of hurricane alley with a smashed boat following hurricane Gonzalo. As you know from seeing the pictures and your social media comments, I’m not the only one.

For the record, we live in St. Martin, it’s not just somewhere we happened to be when the hurricane came through. My wife and I spent thousands of hours working on our boat, which we loved very much. We missed last year’s sailing season because of all the work we needed to do, so this year decided to keep the boat in the water. You know how time seems to pass more quickly as you get older? Well, that was one reason for sailing the boat in the ‘forbidden’ season. Another reason was the appearance of El Niño and the prediction of a quiet hurricane season. We keep the boat on a mooring in the Simpson Bay Lagoon just 200 yards from our apartment. The attraction of keeping her afloat and my love of sailing proved too tempting and my gut feeling was that this year all would be well. I now know I was wrong.

I’ll come back to our boat a little later.

People on boats lost in the storm were stung by your comments. Boats lost or damaged included commercial vessels and fishing boats that must make a living in these waters all year round. I hope the Seven Seas Sailing Association will cut them a little slack and do the same for operators of local day charter boats who lost their vessels and livelihood and put many people out of work. A couple of boats were left in the lagoon because of family emergencies and the need for the crew to fly home. I hope the seven Seas Cruising Association will also cut them some slack.

I hope the good captains of the Association will also spare a thought for the people who did all they could to hold on to their boat in a tropical storm that turned into a killer hurricane. Perhaps certain members would like the phone number of the couple on the boat that was wrecked where ours finally fetched up, so that they can tell them in person of their folly. But the problem is, they no longer have a phone, it’s under water inside the wreck of their home—a 47-foot boat that was smashed beyond recognition until it sank leaving a broken man who could only cry and a wife who thought they were both going to die. They fought the storm with all they had … and lost. Do they deserve some slack or are they guilty of negligence too?

Perhaps the association would also like to email one of my friends, a man who worked and saved to rebuild an already damaged boat so that he could continue to live and work on a Caribbean island, as was his dream. He was working to put an engine in his boat and he had no money to pay for a haul out. And Trinidad is a long way for an engineless motorboat to go; even a member of the Seven Seas Sailing Association couldn’t do that. I’m sure he would love an email, once he’s worked to repair the hole and get the boat off the rocks and put a little money aside to replace his laptop computer. He is unable to reply to your comments right now and I feel I shouldn’t add to his pain, so excuse me if I don’t pass them on. Does he deserve a little slack? Yes? No?

I knew the old man who died. He lived aboard in St. Martin for countless years. His boat’s seagoing days were long gone, as were his. But his friends were here, people who loved and cared about him. I’m sure they would like to chat with you about how he brought it on himself? He shouldn’t have been here, should he? Mind you, cutting him some slack won’t do much good because he’s now in Fiddlers Green.

Now back to our little drama and the loss of the boat we loved. I don’t need the Seven Seas Cruising Association to cut me any slack. No, you gallant captains, no slack at all. Beat up on me all you want. I broke the rules and Mother Nature extracted her price. I am sad, nay, heartbroken at the loss of our boat and will carry with me forever the knowledge that I got it wrong, that my seamanship wasn’t good enough. And should I forget then I’m sure some member of the SSCA will be happy to remind me.

We are not asking for help, money or even sympathy, but what we do ask for is a little understanding from fellow mariners, not headshaking and certainly not sanctimonious comments. The majority of people who lost their boats prepared as best they could, or knew how. They fought like lions, and I hope those cruisers making hurtful comments are strong enough in body and mind to do the same next time they venture on the ocean and the sky darkens, the wind builds, and lighting strikes the water close by. But of course you will never be in the wrong place at the wrong time, will you? But if you are, then I for one will cut you some slack, because like me you’re a sailor, and I’m sure that along with your esteemed knowledge of seamanship and nicely framed captain’s license, members of the SSCA are human too.

Dedicated to the memory of Chris and all those lost in storms at sea.
I posted this to the SSCA Facebook Group page also. Note that the Facebook page isn't the SSCA Website and has many non SSCA members posting. I was disturbed by some of those postings as are many here:

Our hearts and thoughts go to those who were caught in the storm. A few comments here and on other forums were unkind, unnecessary, thoughtless, and, I'm guessing, factually incorrect.

SSCA's Board and Membership have taken a fairly loose policy on moderating this forum and permitting non-members to join. Please know that the occasional thoughtless comment in no way reflects the position of our leadership and members and is far from the clean wake tradition we strive to maintain. I do try to read most of the comments here but I'm sure I miss a few. I'm always amazed how people will put comments into social media that they would never utter in person. Regardless, my apologies from SSCA for the thoughtless comments, my thanks for the gracious ones, and my hope we can all do better.

Scott Berg; President/BOD, SSCA
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Old 17-10-2014, 12:29   #54
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Re: Gonzalo

My thoughts and best wishes for good fortune to everyone in Bermuda . . . .

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Old 17-10-2014, 12:30   #55
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Re: Gonzalo

Geez... Did I just screw up my quick look at Bermuda... How close is that huricane going?
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Old 17-10-2014, 12:30   #56
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Re: Gonzalo

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
There needed no chafe protection because the 1.5 inch rope in a 3/4 inch slot did not allow for any movement whatsoever. I thought I would need to winch the lines out of the fairlead hornes after the hurricane but even after 95 knots they were not deeply embedded so they did not more, could not move = no possible chafe.



BTW the lines popped straight out after the storm.



The storm is only 150nms away from you so not far. Wind strengths are expected to be 110 knots SUSTAINED.

I think you MUST leave the boat.
Theres nothing we could do in 80 or 90 knots and its other boats dragging thats totally out of your control. You cant get on deck in that wind let alone fend off. So get off the boat and rent a hotel room or watch from the bar, but GET OFF.

You are set in your location now so before you leave to go ashore all you can do it put out extra anchors (who cares if they twist in the aftermath, just slowly recover them later.). Ensure all sails are off (ours were not taken off because we still were not expecting tha high winds untill it was too windy to do anything). Ensure every last bit of flapping material, line etc is lashed down. That all the rodes, chains etc are chafe protected if the can possibly move.

So all I can suggest is get to shore. If your dinghy is already ashore just jump on the VHF and ask someone to ferry you in to shore. Its not chicken to get off. Because I assure you I would be OFF MY BOAT. You have done all you can, all you can be reasonably expected to do, and you can not do a thing whilst on the boat in the storm, so on the balance of probabilities you life is better served being able to help people ashore, and after the storm to be alive and get your dinghy into the water IMMEDIATELY the wind settles, even if its 4am and get out there and check on everyone, help everyone, make sure no one is injured and can't get to hospital. Getting off is not leaving the battle, its reserving your forces to where they can best be used in that small community that could be devestated in such a strong storm. You are more vaulable after the storm with a tool box and a first aid kit and a dinghy that works than a dead sailor on a boat.

IMHO its more heroic to know when to get off than curmudgeonly stay when the wind is 110 kots SUSTAINED. Gusting to what???

All the best
please find hotel room and hide
i say for selfish reasons-- dont wanna read about yer dead or missing ass tomorrow or day after.
please be safe.
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Old 17-10-2014, 12:32   #57
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Re: Gonzalo

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Geez... Did I just screw up my quick look at Bermuda... How close is that huricane going?
Current GFS forecast is a dead on Hit.
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Old 17-10-2014, 12:39   #58
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Re: Gonzalo

Thanks Evans. I hope Accomplice is off.

If you are not off the boat and can not get off (i think the wind is already 50 knots) then work the boat as best you can.



Good luck
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Old 17-10-2014, 12:39   #59
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Re: Gonzalo

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Current GFS forecast is a dead on Hit.
i do hope everyone is safe and planted firmly somewhere.. best thoughts and hold fast.....
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Old 17-10-2014, 12:57   #60
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Re: Gonzalo

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
There needed no chafe protection because the 1.5 inch rope in a 3/4 inch slot did not allow for any movement whatsoever. I thought I would need to winch the lines out of the fairlead hornes after the hurricane but even after 95 knots they were not deeply embedded so they did not more, could not move = no possible chafe.



BTW the lines popped straight out after the storm.



The storm is only 150nms away from you so not far. Wind strengths are expected to be 110 knots SUSTAINED.

I think you MUST leave the boat.
Theres nothing we could do in 80 or 90 knots and its other boats dragging thats totally out of your control. You cant get on deck in that wind let alone fend off. So get off the boat and rent a hotel room or watch from the bar, but GET OFF.

You are set in your location now so before you leave to go ashore all you can do it put out extra anchors (who cares if they twist in the aftermath, just slowly recover them later.). Ensure all sails are off (ours were not taken off because we still were not expecting tha high winds untill it was too windy to do anything). Ensure every last bit of flapping material, line etc is lashed down. That all the rodes, chains etc are chafe protected if the can possibly move.

So all I can suggest is get to shore. If your dinghy is already ashore just jump on the VHF and ask someone to ferry you in to shore. Its not chicken to get off. Because I assure you I would be OFF MY BOAT. You have done all you can, all you can be reasonably expected to do, and you can not do a thing whilst on the boat in the storm, so on the balance of probabilities you life is better served being able to help people ashore, and after the storm to be alive and get your dinghy into the water IMMEDIATELY the wind settles, even if its 4am and get out there and check on everyone, help everyone, make sure no one is injured and can't get to hospital. Getting off is not leaving the battle, its reserving your forces to where they can best be used in that small community that could be devestated in such a strong storm. You are more vaulable after the storm with a tool box and a first aid kit and a dinghy that works than a dead sailor on a boat.

IMHO its more heroic to know when to get off than curmudgeonly stay when the wind is 110 kots SUSTAINED. Gusting to what???

All the best
Thanks, MarkJ. I am ashore. Winds are picking up here.

Bermuda weather said 110kts sustained gusting to 140kts tonight.

It might be gallows humor, but my wife (back in the USA) has already started picking out our next boat. 😢

There's no one on a boat here in Convicts Bay. There may be a polish Canadian on a government mooring towards the airport, but the marine police were on top of it.

I have my portable VHF, but there's nothing I can really do till morning anyway even if...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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