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GoingWalkabout · 17-02-2015, 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

Don't get confused. There are two mistakes that you do not need to make and this fellow made:

- He was in a place known to be dangerous (both the whole area and the specific spot).
- He resisted when someone came in with a gun instead of giving them what they wanted.

I have lived in Brazil as a corporate expat for several years and later on sailed the whole coast of Brazil not once but twice. I have also assisted others making the trip. When one of them wanted to go to a place that looked iffy to me I would make contact with a yacht club in the area and never had a problem, even though the boats were very expensive boats that were much more likely to attract crime.

Make sure you get the cruising guide written by the Brazilian guy (not the nicely printed one) that has good info on safety. Then use free resources such as Brazilian forum members (count me in too) to validate your plans. Enjoy your time in Brazil!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Having survived an attempted car hijacking in Argentina by 4 armed military age and looking assailants I am positive I would not be here today if I hadn't used my evasion and anti terrorist training. This is not the first time I was surrounded at gunpoint in my car. The previous time was in Israel when I was taken by armed muslims. Then I didn't resist and evasive action was out of the question since I was top and tailed with the armed guys sandwiching me in with their cars at the front and rear. In this instance I was taken and then subjected to the most awful experience which I won't go into here. Only to say that being interrogated at the point of pistol in a dingy jail was the most terrifying thing I had experienced. Never knowing from second to second wether each breath was going to be my last. So when attacked in Argentina I was determined not to allow myself and my helpless passengers to be put in that position. I reversed my car as the gunmen pointed their Glocks with laser points into my car. Assessed that I had enough distance to take out the open doors of the bandits car that was in front of me blocking the on ramp to the freeway. I flawed my BMW and went flying past the gunmen who had a look of shock on their faces. (I am sure they weren't expecting this from a blond women). I hit their car left back and front doors at I guess around 80mph. The doors went flying into the air ripped clean off. Luckily my strong car was not disabled and I was able to hit the freeway. They did chase after me. And I did get away.

I will not ever put myself in a position of living or dying at the whim of a bandit. Self protection be it evasive or overwhelming fire power is for me not something i even have to think about. Someone steps foot on my boat uninvited they deserve to be blown away. Especially after the Brazil incident I do not think I have another choice than to cary at the very least a captains side arm. Now I have to study up on the international laws about carrying firearms at sea and in port.

Sorry to bore you all with my own land based experiences but it may give some understanding why I feel the way I do.

Chaya.

scuba0_1 · 17-02-2015, 09:31

So any one want wager where we will go next..

Sent from my SM-N910V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

svlamorocha · 17-02-2015, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Having survived an attempted car hijacking in Argentina by 4 armed military age and looking assailants (snip)I flawed my BMW (snip)
Sorry to bore you all with my own land based experiences but it may give some understanding why I feel the way I do.
Chaya.

In this subject it is difficult to detect believers from trolls so I will pretend you are a believer.

I like BMWs and I have lived in Argentina too (in fact I am in Argentina as I write this); I just choose a different way of protecting myself from crime.

I left the BMW behind when I moved from the US to Argentina, just like I had left another one behind when I moved from the UK to Brazil. I traded the company BMW perk for a VW and a Renault; the company saved money and I felt safer.

By the way, when I lived in Sao Paulo many of my Brazilian neighbors got kidnapped despite their armoured BMWs and bodyguards. The armour and bodyguards and guns may help, but not enough to hide that someone is showing off lots of money around people who lack the most basic things.

In fact I did the "expat in dangerous land" training for corporate expats provided by Control Risks. IMHO the best thing was that the "students" that later on got in trouble did not lack armoured cars or bodyguards. They just showed off!

Back to cruising, some cruisers don´t seem to understand that even the most modest cruising boat may identify them as "rich people".

On a positive note specifically relevant for Brazil, if you go to Brazil and do not show off you can "blend" with the locals if you keep your mouth shut and dress like a local (Havaiana flip flops, etc). Race is not an issue because they have all races there. I have sailed the whole Brazilian coast in very expensive boats with foreign owners and they got to see lots of popular things (Carnival, Bomfim, etc) in Rio, Salvador, etc without a problem. Of course we knew the boats were a target , so we just made sure to have the boat in the right place before going to the festival on our Havaianas instead of an armoured BMW.

Have fun!

GoingWalkabout · 17-02-2015, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

In this subject it is difficult to detect believers from trolls so I will pretend you are a believer.

I like BMWs and I have lived in Argentina too (in fact I am in Argentina as I write this); I just choose a different way of protecting myself from crime.

I left the BMW behind when I moved from the US to Argentina, just like I had left another one behind when I moved from the UK to Brazil. .......

By the way, when I lived in Sao Paulo many of my Brazilian neighbors got kidnapped despite their armoured BMWs and bodyguards. .........

Back to cruising, some cruisers don´t seem to understand that even the most modest cruising boat may identify them as "rich people".

I am not a troll. I think land based experience with attempted and actual kidnapping gives me a perspective on how I would handle being involved in a situation using another kind of transportation.

My BMW in Argentina is fitted out with bullet proof glass. That is why I let the gunman come up to the side of the car before I made my move. When one of them used the but of his gun to knock against the window while he and the others were shouting at us later I was told that this probably saved me. Most likely being either ex military or police, ether way they knew how to take a double handed feet lightly spread position while pointing their weapons. I was told that seeing that I had bullet proof glass probably stopped them from unloading on me at such close quarters.... ricocheting bullets a big problem for them. Oh, I couldn't reverse all the way back on the on ramp because it had spikes like you see at airports stopping a reversal.

My friends told me that having a BMW in Argentina would be a problem. For me it was already a step down from the Mercedes in the US. But I am absolutely sure that if I had a lesser strong car I wouldn't have made it past their cars open doors blocking my way. I am so thankful I had and still have such a sting car. By the way many people are attacked in Renaults etc.

You have said yourself that these bandits would even see any kind of boat as that being owned by a rich person. Therefore a target. What I am saying is that being the case..... I am not going like a sheep to the slaughter.

And I too am writing this from Buenos Aires.

Thanks,
Chaya

jmschmidt · 17-02-2015, 12:03

Pepper spray, MACE or what have you can be construed as an illegal weapon in some countries or even states. Wasp and hornet spray (something that might normally be found on a boat) most likely can not. It will shoot a narrow stream over 20 feet which doesn't mist out as it travels, making it very easy to hit a target. It is very depilating when spray in someone's face but will not permanently harm flesh or even eyes. It can also be purchased locally all over the world. I recommend 2 cans, one for the skipper and one for the girl, assuming the skipper is not also a girl.

Duct Tape · 17-02-2015, 12:18

I heard about one guy who electrified his lifelines at night...

DeepFrz · 17-02-2015, 18:36

GoingWalkabout, gun laws are not international. You enter a country and you are under their laws. Get caught with an unlicensed side arm in many countries and you are in a heap of trouble. Enter a country without declaring a weapon and it is found by customs, you are in a heap of trouble.

Therapy · 17-02-2015, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Pepper spray, MACE or what have you can be construed as an illegal weapon in some countries or even states. Wasp and hornet spray (something that might normally be found on a boat) most likely can not. It will shoot a narrow stream over 20 feet which doesn't mist out as it travels, making it very easy to hit a target. It is very depilating when spray in someone's face but will not permanently harm flesh or even eyes. It can also be purchased locally all over the world. I recommend 2 cans, one for the skipper and one for the girl, assuming the skipper is not also a girl.

This has been debunked in the past. It just pisses them off.

Sorry I don't have the link.

Sun and Moon · 17-02-2015, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Having survived an attempted car hijacking in Argentina by 4 armed military age and looking assailants I am positive I would not be here today if I hadn't used my evasion and anti terrorist training. This is not the first time I was surrounded at gunpoint in my car. The previous time was in Israel when I was taken by armed muslims. Then I didn't resist and evasive action was out of the question since I was top and tailed with the armed guys sandwiching me in with their cars at the front and rear. In this instance I was taken and then subjected to the most awful experience which I won't go into here. Only to say that being interrogated at the point of pistol in a dingy jail was the most terrifying thing I had experienced. Never knowing from second to second wether each breath was going to be my last. So when attacked in Argentina I was determined not to allow myself and my helpless passengers to be put in that position. I reversed my car as the gunmen pointed their Glocks with laser points into my car. Assessed that I had enough distance to take out the open doors of the bandits car that was in front of me blocking the on ramp to the freeway. I flawed my BMW and went flying past the gunmen who had a look of shock on their faces. (I am sure they weren't expecting this from a blond women). I hit their car left back and front doors at I guess around 80mph. The doors went flying into the air ripped clean off. Luckily my strong car was not disabled and I was able to hit the freeway. They did chase after me. And I did get away.

I will not ever put myself in a position of living or dying at the whim of a bandit. Self protection be it evasive or overwhelming fire power is for me not something i even have to think about. Someone steps foot on my boat uninvited they deserve to be blown away. Especially after the Brazil incident I do not think I have another choice than to cary at the very least a captains side arm. Now I have to study up on the international laws about carrying firearms at sea and in port.

Sorry to bore you all with my own land based experiences but it may give some understanding why I feel the way I do.

Chaya.

What a pile of BS

GoingWalkabout · 17-02-2015, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun and Moon

What a pile of BS

And why do you say this?

GoingWalkabout · 17-02-2015, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

GoingWalkabout, gun laws are not international. You enter a country and you are under their laws. Get caught with an unlicensed side arm in many countries and you are in a heap of trouble. Enter a country without declaring a weapon and it is found by customs, you are in a heap of trouble.

I thought this was the case. Do countries allow you to declare your firearm and hand it over for custody in anti gun jurisdictions? If circumnavigating than what else could be a replacement. A short handled spear gun perhaps. Or a second flare gun modified to take a different kind of shell.

What do you think you could use to defend yourself?

Wannabe-007 · 17-02-2015, 20:00

I'd like some training on this issue... God forbid I ever need it.
Perhaps a combination of GoneWalkabouts "evasion and anti terrorist training" and svlamorocha's "expat in dangerousland" training could be beneficial.

So, Gary the Gun comes on my boat to do some pillaging...
I could:
a) Confront Gary with a gun of my own...
Bang bang... one of us is dead or dying, and if its him, I am now in a whole 'nother world of pain... which may or may not land me in prison or worse.

b) Use some form of spray...
at which point he is likely to writhe about, possibly discharging his weapon... but what happens after it wears off. He's still on my boat, and now he's mad. I doubt I can spray & walk away... and I'm pretty sure I'll get shot if I try to chuck him in the water, up anchor, and split... Spray seems like a short term solution to a longer problem to me.

c) Ask Gary to leave...
I'm lead to believe that many intruders flee confrontation and will leave when asked. If that doesn't work, perhaps the next option may yield better than average results.

d) Offer Gary a rum and a snack, then negotiate the terms of his departure
Language could be a barrier, and i'm likely to get pretty wound up if he starts making eyes at my wife. However,

e) Say hello, and if he aint gonna leave, just lay down & take it
If he's only gonna take 'stuff', he can have it.
If he's only gonna take 'stuff' and leave a few bruises, he can do so.

f) Play it by ear, and get violent if you have to
I think I would take a combination approach of c,d,e.
I also think there is a line in there somewhere... if Gary crossed it, I would be calculated, and take the opportunity to put an end to him.
Perhaps a lock on the master cabin... if he wants to go into the room where my wife is, we're escalating.

dpons · 18-02-2015, 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

In preparation for events like this it does make one rethink about self defence weapons such as a shot gun or other powerful evil doer terminator.

It's been done, same area, resulting in the death of the armed sailor.

The best defense is to avoid the area, followed by avoiding arguments with armed thieves. That's just common sense.

Besides, the laws in South America have a different conception of self-defense, you may end up in jail. It's a lot easier to give them your money. Dignity is a poor reward for losing your life in this case.

Group9 · 18-02-2015, 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingmonica

The original article is in Dutch:

Two years ago, something similar happened with an American tourist. The six offenders were sentenced according to the police, but were again at liberty. They are now the main suspects.

I wonder if this last part is accurate.