Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

[Island Time O25]

Like I said before, between 1987 and 2002 I visited Venezuela may be 2 dozen times, give or take. And the last time was really the last time. I actually and literally was there during Chavez' aborted coup attempt in 1993 and watched it live on TV while shopping in an open "mercado" in town. Later that night while walking around eerily empty town center looking for a place to eat we were stopped by the "federales" and were told of the curfew. The local girls with us told them that we were "americanos" (not gringos btw but americanos) and they smiled and let us go. The girls told us if it weren't for us they'd be arrested themsleves for breaking the curfew but that the cops never bothered with tourists, especially Americans. I guess that all changed in the past 20 years.

BTW at about the same time while visiting Mexico we constantly had to say we're either Canadian or Europeans to get better than average service and attitudes the gringos were getting there at the time. Haven't been back there in 20 years as a result. Lately, FL is as much of foreign vacation location as I can stomach.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

, FL is as much of foreign vacation location as I can stomach.

No lie.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Therapy

No lie.

You got that right..

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I am not sure it is poverty=crime. We visited Brazil and we saw some poverty but not extensive, and not extreme. We saw huge numbers of very obese people, hence I could not perceive any signs of extreme poverty.

Also, we visited countries where people were much poorer, and where GDP and per capita GDP were much lower, yet we were safe there.

Maybe it is not so much poverty as the breadth of the gap between the poor and the rich?

Beyond anything, when the criminals do not get caught and punished, and where they get caught but they are set free to walk too soon, they see no reason not to return to their "trade".

Brazil has very inefficient administration and the many offices overlap in apparent responsibilities. So nobody does anything blaming the other office for lack of (education, will, action, etc.). We have seen the same story elsewhere.

So I say bad government=crime.

b.

I agree with your observations and conclusion. Yes bad Government does equal crime. I would also add so does ingrained into society laziness. Sitting around in houses you didn't pay for. Squating on land. Being given Government handouts. Being treated beyond the law by the Police. All contribute to a lawless populas who think they are free to rob and kill with impunity. Welcome to Latin America.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

I agree with your observations and conclusion. Yes bad Government does equal crime. I would also add so does ingrained into society laziness. Sitting around in houses you didn't pay for. Squating on land. Being given Government handouts. Being treated beyond the law by the Police. All contribute to a lawless populas who think they are free to rob and kill with impunity. Welcome to Latin America.

In the early 90s, shortly before that 1993 Chavez' coup, our vacation package had to be rerouted to Cancun due to serious riots/disturbances in Venezuela. Well, a year or so later things calmed down there (or so it seemed) and we went back. The reason for the riots turned out to be their free-market oriented gov't trying to lessen (not completely cut off just lessen) subsidies for meat, beer and fuel. The beer went from equivalent of 25c per six-pack to almost a dollar and fuel almost doubled from 8c a gallon (not a liter) to 13c. That's why Chavez attempted his coup at the time. Because the 99 percenters in Venezuela couldn't stomach near market prices for their staples. So rather than get to work and earn more they rioted.

Another funny (to us) observation. We once stayed in a nice almost new hotel at the really dirt cheap rate due to some construction across the street. The first time we were there that place across was at about 3 or 4 floors out of may be 10 or 12. Two years later our travel agent (this was before the internet of course) asked us if we want that discounted place again. We couldn't believe it when we arrived. 2 years later they were doing 5th or 6th floor. And that was about the pace of anything there. I think they were even too lazy to commit much crime at the time as their main staples were too cheap to risk a possible police beating.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

I agree with your observations and conclusion. Yes bad Government does equal crime. I would also add so does ingrained into society laziness. Sitting around in houses you didn't pay for. Squating on land. Being given Government handouts. Being treated beyond the law by the Police. All contribute to a lawless populas who think they are free to rob and kill with impunity. Welcome to Latin America.

I would agree. And, it's not just Latin America. I've worked in law enforcement all over the United States and in a lot of foreign countries. My motto used to be, "I've worked in New Orleans, Baltimore, Miami and several other third world cities."

Bad crime always accompanies bad government. And, low crime always results with good government. And, of course, that's not just because of how good government handles law enforcement. It's because of the way good government handles everything it's involved in.

The only caveat to that, is that government without leadership, that has no clue what to do, and makes no real decisions, is about the same as bad government making bad decisions. And, out of control corruption (and I make that distinction because all government, in my experience, is going to suffer and experience some corruption as long as human beings are involved) makes it worse.

Good government is not rocket science, but it's amazing how often the leaders in governments, local and national, in a lot of different places, just can't seem to pull it off.

[dpons]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

South American (leftest Govs.) going to hell very quick ..

Sorry to rain in your parade, but the leftists governments of SA brought their economies to a high point unknown in decades, with the possible exception of Vzla, which is 100% dependent on oil prices.

Please inform yourself before making assertions of that nature.

[dpons]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Interesting about Cuba. If course this doesn't take into account State administered killings.

I doubt if there are in Cuba 1% of the state-administered killings there are in the US (death penalty), not even counting drones activities that kill innocent people.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by dpons

Sorry to rain in your parade, but the leftists governments of SA brought their economies to a high point unknown in decades, with the possible exception of Vzla, which is 100% dependent on oil prices.

Please inform yourself before making assertions of that nature.

Yes like the leftist Government of Argentina that loves Cuba and Venezuela. Argentina used to be the largest beef exporter in the World. Now even little Uruguay exports meet. Argentina has a huge crime rate coupled with ingrained systemic poverty as it's economy keeps sliding. Strict import controls that make doing business incredibly difficult along with currently controls all being favourite tools of left wing Governments have plunged Argentina further down the economic heap. Your Uruguay also has seen a tremendous drop in its economic welfare since the election of your ex left wing terrorist as your President. Higher land taxes he imposed hit badly the farm sector along with other anti business left wing policies.

South America shining light of economic prosperity, Brazil has fast been derailed again under another left wing anti business leader. Now in the grips of rampant inflation, increasing unemployment, and decreasing business output we see once again left wing nut jobs who are anti capitalism ruining their countries.

At least in Uruguay you don't have a President that gave cover to Iranian terrorists and recently looked over the assassination of a prosecutor who was going to charge the President with crimes. You know which country I'm talking about.

South America is riddled with anti western, anti free market left wing ex terrorist leaders who continue to take bribes while they steal from their own people and ruin their countries economies.

[dpons]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I am not sure it is poverty=crime. We visited Brazil and we saw some poverty but not extensive, and not extreme. We saw huge numbers of very obese people, hence I could not perceive any signs of extreme poverty.

Obesity and hight smoking rates are more prevalent among the poor, starchy food is cheaper. Go watch people at social services office in Upstate NY, and compare it to the people in a mall in Santa Monica, CA.

Also, we visited countries where people were much poorer, and where GDP and per capita GDP were much lower, yet we were safe there.

The issue is no plain poverty, but extreme poverty, indigence. Cuba is poor yet with a very low crime rate, Colombia is richer, with more indigency and more crime

Maybe it is not so much poverty as the breadth of the gap between the poor and the rich?

The is part of the issue, yes.

So I say bad government=crime.

b.

You assume that governments have the freedom to do "good things". In my experience, that's not the case. Many times they are pressured by foreigns powers, local oligarchies, rules of the IMF, etc.

For example, in Venezuela, until Chávez, the multinational oil companies only paid 2% on oil export taxes. Chávez raised it to 18% and months later there was a coup against him.

In the case that SA, the economies that have taken off are the same as the ones that kicked out the IMF (Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Ecuador, Bolivia).

A black and white, Fox-News-type of analysis does not work well to understand the real issues of crime and poverty, which are full of nuances.

I admire the Germans in that respect: before visiting a country they tend to read about it and to learn the language.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Group9

Bad crime always accompanies bad government. And, low crime always results with good government. And, of course, that's not just because of how good government handles law enforcement. It's because of the way good government handles everything it's involved in.

Except here in MA. We probaly have some of the most corrupt politicians in US yet the crime rates, with small exceptions, are quite low by national standards.

Also as far as poverty and crime are concerned it is more often than not not the poverty itself which creates crime but the perception on the part of the poor that a) they were somehow cheated out of their share, b) you, the victim of their crime are one of the beneficiaries of that cheating and c) everybody does it anyway from lowly postman stealing X-mas presents to the president of the ruling junta stealing the country's budget.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Except here in MA. We probaly have some of the most corrupt politicians in US yet the crime rates, with small exceptions, are quite low by national standards.

Also as far as poverty and crime are concerned it is more often than not not the poverty itself which creates crime but the perception on the part of the poor that a) they were somehow cheated out of their share, b) you, the victim of their crime are one of the beneficiaries of that cheating and c) everybody does it anyway from lowly postman stealing X-mas presents to the president of the ruling junta stealing the country's budget.

So true about the current Junta stealing the country wealth. Not long ago a South American President was flying back on her state large jet and had an unscheduled stop for a few ours in the Seychelles. Reliable reports are she unloaded a plane full of currency for deposit in her hidden accounts so the transfer couldn't be monitored by the US intelligence. It is estimated this President has stolen over 1/3 rd of he countries reserves. Yes there is corruption in Governments around the world but nothing on the scale that you see in SA.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

So true about the current Junta stealing the country wealth. Not long ago a South American President was flying back on her state large jet and had an unscheduled stop for a few ours in the Seychelles. Reliable reports are she unloaded a plane full of currency for deposit in her hidden accounts so the transfer couldn't be monitored by the US intelligence. It is estimated this President has stolen over 1/3 rd of he countries reserves. Yes there is corruption in Governments around the world but nothing on the scale that you see in SA.

Except may be Russia. Putin is reputed to amass between 50 and 200 billion dollars during his 15 years in power. He makes any other 3rd world dictator look like a welfare recipient.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Except may be Russia. Putin is reputed to amass between 50 and 200 billion dollars during his 15 years in power. He makes any other 3rd world dictator look like a welfare recipient.

No comment from me about Putin. I don't want to be gunned down while walking accross a bridge.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

No comment from me about Putin. I don't want to be gunned down while walking accross a bridge.

Yeah, supposedly he's been missing for the past 8-9 days and I hope he's not lurking on CF looking to revenge past or current slights.

But back to the topic. I think that the cruisers coming from the more well to do countries (or so perceived by the locals) will always be targets of some sort. Either of scams such as "my grandma needs an expensive operation" from a local beach love interest or a local business fleecing you for some part or service just because you have a boat. Even if the place is relatively violence free. IMO it's just a part of doing business/comes with the territory and should be acknowledged and adjusted to accordingly. After all we're coming to their land so we have to play by their rules (or lack thereof) no matter how unfair or onerous they may seem to us.