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Old 18-02-2015, 14:56   #31
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
GoingWalkabout, gun laws are not international. You enter a country and you are under their laws. Get caught with an unlicensed side arm in many countries and you are in a heap of trouble. Enter a country without declaring a weapon and it is found by customs, you are in a heap of trouble.
+1
Add to this what happens if you declare arms. Imagine leaving your gun in bond in Rio Grande do Sul and then trying to get it back when you clear out in Fortaleza.....

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Old 18-02-2015, 15:34   #32
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

If you are going to visit places that have high crime rates, you need to be prepared for it. Otherwise go somewhere else. Just handing over anything you own to someone that boards your boat in the middle of the night isn't the answer. The easier crime becomes, the more criminals you get. When facing armed criminals, you may be facing people that don't hold human life as valuable as you do. For some of them, no witness, no crime.
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Old 18-02-2015, 15:51   #33
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

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If you are going to visit places that have high crime rates, you need to be prepared for it. Otherwise go somewhere else. Just handing over anything you own to someone that boards your boat in the middle of the night isn't the answer. The easier crime becomes, the more criminals you get. When facing armed criminals, you may be facing people that don't hold human life as valuable as you do. For some of them, no witness, no crime.
My thoughts exactly. Especially on a boat. Bang Bang, splash, body disposed of, get away with the stash.

On the two occasions I have had guns pointed at me. Once by Muslims in the Mid East and Once in Buenos Aires, Argentina by car jackers I will never let myself be in that situation again. I agree that one should be a lot more careful when traveling in economic challenged areas with a high poverty rate. You should be totally aware of where you are putting your boat. Definitely not in front of a township of Brazilian slums that even the Police don't go into. But even after taking location precautions an uninvited boarding either at anchor or at sea can happen almost anywhere. For this one should be very prepared. This is the worst kind of home invasion and I would not like anyone to experience even for a second having low lives pointing a gun at you and you not knowing if you are going to live or die. Smily faces can work well on the internet but Im not going to stake my life on using them in front of desperado's.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:01   #34
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

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Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
...Just handing over anything you own to someone that boards your boat in the middle of the night isn't the answer...
So what, pretell, is the answer?
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:34   #35
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

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So what, pretell, is the answer?
I have to give this a great deal of thought since Im struggling myself with this question. I hope others can provide some suggestions.

To my mind you need to look at bot defensive as well as offensive protection.

On the defensive side not putting yourself in front of Favela (slum) like this poor Dutch sailor did would be a good start. So situational observation and a defensive position for you boat. Then perhaps non lethal but very hurtful level of electric charge on you life lines etc while you are bellow after nightfall. This could provide a good perimeter defense. You may need to put up warning signs in a number of languages to cover yourself from liability on this one. Then you could add sensors to your boats perimeter. On board that when tripped will sound of one heck of an alarm. With the alarm you could have an automatic loud speaker with a message in Spanish, French, English that an intruder has been detected the boat owner is armed and will fire.

On the offensive side I believe that you don't prod a bear with a stick. If its in your danger zone you take it down with lethal force. And I mean take it down. Now if your a cool and collected person and a very good shot you can aim for the persons gun hand shoulder. But anyone in law enforcement will tell you that is dangerous you best off taking the body shot the moment the danger presents itself. That is after you have assessed they have a gun. Now how do you legally arm yourself while at sea I really have no idea. Are their maritime laws regarding this?

Having said all the above and given my own awful experiences I do not relish the thought of getting into a gun fight and would think very carefully about it. But if I had the element of surprise while they where boarding and I had a clear shot I would most definitely take it.

I did hear that someone modified a flare guns shells and was prepared to use that to take down an evil doer. Could be a way of getting around fire arm possession limitations. Just a thought.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:46   #36
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

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So, Gary the Gun comes on my boat to do some pillaging...
I could:
Have anchored someplace else just like I had been warned to do in the first place.

When someone tells you where you are is not safe, get the hell out of there.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:48   #37
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

It seems that the spot where this happen was one of the most dangereous place in Barsil. Couple of years ago when I wanted to sail to Brazil, I called one italian friend who was living for 10 years in Natal. He simply said "don't do that". My plan was to land in Fortelezza and he said that this is the most dangereous place in Brazil and souther you go, relatively safer I would be will be.. Is that correct ?

I am sure Brazil is worth a visit but do you think there are releatively safer spots even if you just visit the marinas and avoid anchoring ?

Cheers

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Old 18-02-2015, 16:51   #38
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
I have to give this a great deal of thought since Im struggling myself with this question. I hope others can provide some suggestions.

To my mind you need to look at bot defensive as well as offensive protection.

On the defensive side not putting yourself in front of Favela (slum) like this poor Dutch sailor did would be a good start. So situational observation and a defensive position for you boat. Then perhaps non lethal but very hurtful level of electric charge on you life lines etc while you are bellow after nightfall. This could provide a good perimeter defense. You may need to put up warning signs in a number of languages to cover yourself from liability on this one. Then you could add sensors to your boats perimeter. On board that when tripped will sound of one heck of an alarm. With the alarm you could have an automatic loud speaker with a message in Spanish, French, English that an intruder has been detected the boat owner is armed and will fire.

On the offensive side I believe that you don't prod a bear with a stick. If its in your danger zone you take it down with lethal force. And I mean take it down. Now if your a cool and collected person and a very good shot you can aim for the persons gun hand shoulder. But anyone in law enforcement will tell you that is dangerous you best off taking the body shot the moment the danger presents itself. That is after you have assessed they have a gun. Now how do you legally arm yourself while at sea I really have no idea. Are their maritime laws regarding this?

Having said all the above and given my own awful experiences I do not relish the thought of getting into a gun fight and would think very carefully about it. But if I had the element of surprise while they where boarding and I had a clear shot I would most definitely take it.

I did hear that someone modified a flare guns shells and was prepared to use that to take down an evil doer. Could be a way of getting around fire arm possession limitations. Just a thought.
Suggest you read the following threads. Most all has been discussed before and there really is nothing new to date.

Carry a Gun on Board?
Disembark Guns on Board
Hiding Guns on Board
Guns on Board
Firearms Regulations by Country
Protocol When Cruising With Guns
Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island
Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates
Avoiding Getting Boarded
Protection from Pirates: The Almost-Perfect Solution
Caribbean - Pirated Waters ?
'Pirates' and 'Pirate Attacks'
Defense Weapons Against Piracy

Then let us know what you think the answer is.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:51   #39
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

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Originally Posted by Wannabe-007 View Post
I'd like some training on this issue... God forbid I ever need it.
Perhaps a combination of GoneWalkabouts "evasion and anti terrorist training" and svlamorocha's "expat in dangerousland" training could be beneficial.


So, Gary the Gun comes on my boat to do some pillaging...
I could:
a) Confront Gary with a gun of my own...
Bang bang... one of us is dead or dying, and if its him, I am now in a whole 'nother world of pain... which may or may not land me in prison or worse.

b) Use some form of spray...
at which point he is likely to writhe about, possibly discharging his weapon... but what happens after it wears off. He's still on my boat, and now he's mad. I doubt I can spray & walk away... and I'm pretty sure I'll get shot if I try to chuck him in the water, up anchor, and split... Spray seems like a short term solution to a longer problem to me.

c) Ask Gary to leave...
I'm lead to believe that many intruders flee confrontation and will leave when asked. If that doesn't work, perhaps the next option may yield better than average results.

d) Offer Gary a rum and a snack, then negotiate the terms of his departure
Language could be a barrier, and i'm likely to get pretty wound up if he starts making eyes at my wife. However,

e) Say hello, and if he aint gonna leave, just lay down & take it
If he's only gonna take 'stuff', he can have it.
If he's only gonna take 'stuff' and leave a few bruises, he can do so.

f) Play it by ear, and get violent if you have to
I think I would take a combination approach of c,d,e.
I also think there is a line in there somewhere... if Gary crossed it, I would be calculated, and take the opportunity to put an end to him.
Perhaps a lock on the master cabin... if he wants to go into the room where my wife is, we're escalating.
Hello.

I found your outline of possible responses interesting to read and thought provoking in ways that many comments in the many "Gun Threads" have lacked.

While it is posted in this thread, I think it would be better served in a thread of its own. Of course there are many threads already on the forum related to "guns" on boats, but I think the discussion could be more about how to anticipate and respond to perceived threats, rather than a focus on the tools (weapons).

Most importantly, I think your outline recognizes that there are several possible responses and that each scenario may require some kind of flexibility in response if the threat escalates.

In other words, the scenario may be a complex one, and a complex scenario may be best met with some flexibility, rather than a rigid or simplistic response.

I think flexibility, caution, and restraint (of armed reaction) is required because it is evident in the stories we read here on this forum, that what may at first appear to be a "threat" (e.g. a boat or canoe approaches with 2 men in it wishing to parlay or board one's sailboat), may in fact be something else entirely (e.g. two fishermen want to sell fish to the sailboat or ask for water or fuel or cigarettes or to warn the sailors to avoid some fishing nets up ahead).

That said, if the "threat" becomes "real" and one's life is at stake, I think it is prudent to have a planned response that one can effectively use, even under duress.
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Old 18-02-2015, 16:55   #40
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

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...But if I had the element of surprise while they where boarding and I had a clear shot I would most definitely take it.
...and when you found out that it was a guest from another boat who had drunk one too many and climbed aboard the wrong boat?
...or perhaps a friendly native who saw your light on and climbed on to ask if you wanted some of his fish (hence the spear gun you thought was a weapon).
...or the people from the charter boat next door who don't understand cruising etiquette and wanted to invite you to their fireworks part?
...or or or...


You see... in practice, these things are often not so cut 'n dry.

Lets assume, for a start, that you're not parked off the Somalia coast. You're somewhere strange, but not a hot spot. You're not asking for it, but it can happen anywhere... The safer parts of South America perhaps? The Carribean?


You're asleep, someone will board your boat (reasons unknown)... what now?
You sneak out a hatch and start shooting?
You ask them to leave, in some manner, from the inside?
If, somehow, you can see they have a gun, you're going to attempt a gun fight... them outside, you inside... ?
For those of us in the 'guns on board are impractical' camp... what? stuff a flare gun in your underwear, and try to live long enough to set your boat on fire? Perhaps take a knife to the gun fight?

Do you really want to kill someone over an outboard and a Jerry can?
How do you know if the man with the machete is carrying it for self defense, a benign threat, or he's has a screw loose?



Like I say... these things, when thought through, are just not simple!

I'm genuinely interested in what people think works, but stupid ideas like 'shoot first, ask questions later' are just
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Old 18-02-2015, 17:05   #41
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

....
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Old 18-02-2015, 18:35   #42
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

Thanks Therapy
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Old 18-02-2015, 19:11   #43
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

OK Therapy. I've just read a log of the posts. My thoughts on the subject now are....... No guns. Issues with customs. So no guns. I did however read this. Very interesting.

"A 25mm flare gun has a much higher muzzle velocity and 4 times the energy of a 12 gauge.*

A jar of gasoline followed by a flare I would imagine would have some effect on a vessel attempting to come alongside. At least they would be distracted for a while.

Then there is the usual assortment of spear*guns*or Bahama slings for close in work if you do not want to torch your own vessel.

If you are travelling through an area filled with pirates it may be an idea to pick up a one of those high pressure* water* sprayers, 3000 PSI sounds about right. You probably could reach out to 200-300 feet or so with the right nozzle with a stream of gasoline.

It would be unfortunate if someone was smoking or fired a gun on the approaching vessel."

Now I'm not saying I'm even thinking of using any these options but there are options.
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Old 18-02-2015, 20:24   #44
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil

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Found this news on Facebook. The article is in Portuguese but the translation is below. During my "dreaming" of circumnavigation I've been wondering about whether stopping in Brazil in the way back from South Africa is worth the risk. The data in Noonsite does not show an increase in crime in Brazil but clearly a much higher rate of attacks than in most of the Caribbean and South America (except for Venezuela). It is sad because both the Brazilian and Venezuelan coasts are stunning and really worth seeing in our life time.

G1 - Holandês é assassinado dentro de embarcação em São Luís - notícias em Maranhão
Brazil is facing hard times and it is not looking good for the short or long term economic future and that means proportionally more desperate people doing what desperate people do.. There are quite a few places in the world that are in or about to go thru profound and never before seen change and In my opinion i think there are and will soon be places that were safe and welcoming becoming unsafe and unwelcoming all over the world..We will soon be well advised to file our flight plans with more caution and consideration for economic and political conditions than ever before.. I was told earlier today that a fellow a friend of mine knew from small town Rowan County NC was arrested for supporting a terrorist organization like that crazy Al Q'ada (sp?) group..Rowan County NC!! Terrorist!! The guys name is "Donald Ray Morgan" what the hell happened to "Mustafa or Marj on"?? "Don Morgan" sounds like somebody you went to school with not that you have to plan your vacation around.. Anyway its going to get worse before it gets better(I could be wrong).. ..Those that wander far from home and seek the enjoyment of being on the open seas and the company of people from foreign lands should keep there eyes wide open and there options many...There is a bunch of crazy people out there! Hate what happened to this poor Dutchman as I have met many fine Dutchman and women in far off places and they always seem to be the most adventurous and fun loving of people,tis sad...
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Old 18-02-2015, 20:26   #45
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Re: Dutch sailor shot dead in Brazil-(Merged)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
OK Therapy. I've just read a log of the posts. My thoughts on the subject now are....... No guns. Issues with customs. So no guns. I did however read this. Very interesting.

"A 25mm flare gun has a much higher muzzle velocity and 4 times the energy of a 12 gauge.*

A jar of gasoline followed by a flare I would imagine would have some effect on a vessel attempting to come alongside. At least they would be distracted for a while.

Then there is the usual assortment of spear*guns*or Bahama slings for close in work if you do not want to torch your own vessel.

If you are travelling through an area filled with pirates it may be an idea to pick up a one of those high pressure* water* sprayers, 3000 PSI sounds about right. You probably could reach out to 200-300 feet or so with the right nozzle with a stream of gasoline.

It would be unfortunate if someone was smoking or fired a gun on the approaching vessel."

Now I'm not saying I'm even thinking of using any these options but there are options.
Before you re-purpose a pressure washer as a flame thrower, I suggest you try it somewhere that only you might die. Perhaps a mile off shore on a frozen lake.

I've dealt with home invasion, B&E etc. I mulled over killing the dope after the first B&E but decided it would give me nightmares. When they finally caught the sad-sack it was clear he was never a bodily threat. He was also lucky with over 50 home invasions, he never got shot. The likely best plan is keep the doors locked & don't live where the bad guys do. The same probably works for boats. I do worry about it. Cruise the Great Lakes - nobody will bother you except to invite you to dinner.
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