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Old 19-06-2015, 09:25   #61
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Thanks, I guess Internet Assisted Idiots would apply for me.
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Old 19-06-2015, 09:42   #62
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Re: Bad Seamanship

An important part of collision avoidance is attitude.

The wrong attitude reflects a failure to understand what you are supposed to do.

Being the stand-on vessel is not a privilege. I know some people are probably tired of hearing me repeat this. Being the stand-on vessel is an assigned role in the process, and it's actually a burden. It doesn't mean that you can just sail on willy nilly. It means you have a particular role to play -- holding course and speed for awhile -- prior to going over to avoiding yourself if the other vessel's maneuver isn't enough. If for any reason whatsoever the give way vessel doesn't alter, you cheerfully go over to avoiding yourself as soon as you feel pretty sure that he's released you from your obligation to stand on.

So if you are under sail and see a ship coming on a collision course (say we're in open sea where no narrow channel rules apply), and see he's not altering, and get him on the VHF, and he tells you that for any reason whatsoever or no reason that he does not intend to or does not want to alter, the correct attitude is immediately alter yourself, thanking him for the information. Because he is not imposing something on you; he is releasing you from having to stand on.

If you perceive this as an imposition on you, you are just not looking at it in the right way. Being the stand-on vessel is not a privilege; it is not right of way. it's really different from land rules.


As others have said; kudos to the OP for listening to everyone.
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Old 19-06-2015, 09:49   #63
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
An important part of collision avoidance is attitude.

The wrong attitude reflects a failure to understand what you are supposed to do.

Being the stand-on vessel is not a privilege. I know some people are probably tired of hearing me repeat this. Being the stand-on vessel is an assigned role in the process, and it's actually a burden. It doesn't mean that you can just sail on willy nilly. It means you have a particular role to play -- holding course and speed for awhile -- prior to going over to avoiding yourself if the other vessel's maneuver isn't enough. If for any reason whatsoever the give way vessel doesn't alter, you cheerfully go over to avoiding yourself as soon as you feel pretty sure that he's released you from your obligation to stand on.

So if you are under sail and see a ship coming on a collision course (say we're in open sea where no narrow channel rules apply), and see he's not altering, and get him on the VHF, and he tells you that for any reason whatsoever or no reason that he does not intend to or does not want to alter, the correct attitude is immediately alter yourself, thanking him for the information. Because he is not imposing something on you; he is releasing you from having to stand on.

If you perceive this as an imposition on you, you are just not looking at it in the right way. Being the stand-on vessel is not a privilege; it is not right of way. it's really different from land rules.


As others have said; kudos to the OP for listening to everyone.
Very Well said.
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Old 19-06-2015, 09:52   #64
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Re: Bad Seamanship

It's a pity we didn't hear the whole story from the OP regarding the crossing. I agree DH that attitude has a lot to do with safe and smooth crossing situations, and it's not just with ships. For example if we are the stand on vessel and see another yacht that may have to tack or gybe, or having difficulty pointing higher to pass, maybe flying a spinnaker, we often take evasive action long before they have to. True we are required to maintain course and speed as the stand on vessel, but a slight alteration that allows the other vessel to maintain their course without having to manoeuvre is more likely appreciated than an annoyance for the other vessel.
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Old 19-06-2015, 10:00   #65
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Re: Bad Seamanship

http://youtu.be/_VHXRYXzEVU



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 19-06-2015, 10:02   #66
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Crossing stand-on vessels, please maintain your course. I've got a bridge abutment to starboard:


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Old 19-06-2015, 10:06   #67
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Too funny!
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Old 19-06-2015, 10:08   #68
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Turn away and live another day..........
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Old 19-06-2015, 15:45   #69
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailrmn View Post
Does anyone know who I would report bad seamanship from a cruise ship to?
Sailing this week off the coast of Culebra I was on a collision course with the ship Carnival Valor. When I hailed him on the radio his response was he had to follow the contour to avoid shallow water. The depths were 80-100 ft.! He was full of it and just plain lazy. But that is awful seamanship. Where should I report this to, does anyone know? Thanks
This type of situation and this type of "sailor" present the principal reasons that I'd consider trading in my sailboat (of 35+ years ownership) and buying a small outboard powered skiff. When "sailboat mentality" gets in the way of common sense, it's time to move on.
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Old 19-06-2015, 17:05   #70
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Re: Bad Seamanship

I sail in the Great South Bay a lot, there is plenty of ferry traffic; although the ferries are known to honor a vessel under sail, I would rather not test that knowledge; tonnage rules.


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Old 19-06-2015, 17:56   #71
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Quote:
(b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.
It doesn't specify WHAT restricts the ability to maneuver, maybe requiring 1/2 mile to turn might meet this criterion.

I always like it when San Pedro Traffic directs container ships to beware of whales in the vicinity. I guess they're supposed to jam on the brakes and maybe do a NASCAR spinout, or a Speedway Bike laydown.
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Old 19-06-2015, 18:15   #72
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Seal View Post
It doesn't specify WHAT restricts the ability to maneuver, maybe requiring 1/2 mile to turn might meet this criterion.




Actually it does.


Rule 3(g)
The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.
The term “vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre” shall include but not be limited to:
  • (i) a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline,
  • (ii) a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations,
  • (iii) a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway,
  • (iv) a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft,
  • (v) a vessel engaged in mineclearance operations,
  • (vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.
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Old 19-06-2015, 18:28   #73
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Re: Bad Seamanship

For the OP, this is simply the best post in your thread and the clearest, wisest explanation of the collision avoidance in open waters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
An important part of collision avoidance is attitude.

The wrong attitude reflects a failure to understand what you are supposed to do.

Being the stand-on vessel is not a privilege. I know some people are probably tired of hearing me repeat this. Being the stand-on vessel is an assigned role in the process, and it's actually a burden. It doesn't mean that you can just sail on willy nilly. It means you have a particular role to play -- holding course and speed for awhile -- prior to going over to avoiding yourself if the other vessel's maneuver isn't enough. If for any reason whatsoever the give way vessel doesn't alter, you cheerfully go over to avoiding yourself as soon as you feel pretty sure that he's released you from your obligation to stand on.

So if you are under sail and see a ship coming on a collision course (say we're in open sea where no narrow channel rules apply), and see he's not altering, and get him on the VHF, and he tells you that for any reason whatsoever or no reason that he does not intend to or does not want to alter, the correct attitude is immediately alter yourself, thanking him for the information. Because he is not imposing something on you; he is releasing you from having to stand on.

If you perceive this as an imposition on you, you are just not looking at it in the right way. Being the stand-on vessel is not a privilege; it is not right of way. it's really different from land rules.


As others have said; kudos to the OP for listening to everyone.
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Old 19-06-2015, 19:05   #74
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Can we beat this dead horse anymore? The OP has responded and admitted his mistake after numerous opinions and facts presented above in response were apparently unanimous in their admonition of the OP. Or are we all so restricted in our own ability to maneuver out of the way of this thread?
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Old 19-06-2015, 19:28   #75
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Re: Bad Seamanship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
Here lies Tommy O'Shea
Who died defending his 'Right of Way'.
He may have been right,
He may have been wrong,
But he's just as dead,
Even though he was wrong!
An old seaman's proverb that I recall from my first skipper back in the fifties... Nothing much changes it appears. Phil
You didnt remember it very well.


Here lies the body of Henry Gray
He died defending his right of way.
His way was right, his will was strong,
But he’s just as dead as if he was wrong.
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